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  #471  
Old 08-08-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

BS:'
I appreciate you trying to lecture me on aesthetics. I should direct you to some of your own boats , which you seem unable to post here. An overhang on a PH is fine if it is done right and the rest of the PH design is right. Your's are a bit hard on the eye, to say the least. Some designers can pull of the "baseball cap" look well.

Phil Rhodes, S&S, K. Aage Nielson, Chuck Paine have done Ph's with out the "baseball cap" knee jerk resolution. Face it BS, you have some issue with aesthetics. You do not have "the eye".

Of course a good Dutch or German steel boat builder could build my shapes. They did it time and again with the designs of Rhodes and S&S. But you can't do it. You have pr oven that time after painful time. Steel is a wonderful material IN THE RIGHT HANDS.
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Last edited by bobperry; 08-09-2013 at 08:24 AM.
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  #472  
Old 08-09-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Brent, that's awesome. It really is very impressive.



Your boats are not for the 99% - period. They are for the 1%.

Nothing wrong with that at all. It's just the way it is.
This could be said of just about every custom boat builder out there.

Many designs get built just a few times.

Few designs get built many times.
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  #473  
Old 08-09-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Sometimes many designs get built many times.
Can you say "Mercedes Benz"?

I say it all the time while I drive my Outback.
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  #474  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Benefits of aluminium / K&M Yachtbuilders

Brent please take a look at this website. It speaks to what Bob is talking about. These folks are creating drop dead gorgeous boats in metal. They and the Boreal people are building boats for high latitude sailing where collisions and groundings may be unavoidable even with good seamanship. The pilothouses/hard dodgers are functional while still flowing in the design. The K M 50 was so well received it was reproduced in GRP (OMG) and put into series production winning the European yacht of the year.
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  #475  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Sometimes many designs get built many times.
Can you say "Mercedes Benz"?

I say it all the time while I drive my Outback.
Wait, are we still talking boats? Cuz, that's what I was referring to. Don't tell me you're changing the subject like BS. That's too predictable.
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  #476  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Raz:
Trust me, no. I do not want to talk about my Outback. Nice car but not worth talking about.
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  #477  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

So I've read this post through, and it seemed to start out well. It covered steel vs fiberflass, and eventually looped in aluminum. Even titanium was mentioned.

Then it devolved into a ridiculous something-or-other about BS's designs and claims and people picked teams and ganged up on one another.... offenses were made... people got banned, then it all came full circle, naval schooling class notes were passed out, and now I'm not sure what I'm left with.

So I'll summarize what I think I learned (since, yes, I'm one of the people interested in steel and was hoping to learn something). I hope y'all are nice when you correct me:

1: Every material has advantages and disadvantages in boatbuilding (not to make a distinction between boats or yachts).

2: Steel, like the others, requires it's own considerations respective to maintenance, construction abilities of it's owner, hull dynamics, etc. It's not the easiest thing to sort through for a hobby builder, but doable to a certain degree by a tenacious amateur (s.v. seeker comes to mind).

3: It's better suited for larger vessels than smaller ones. The benefits diminish the smaller the vessel (in general).

4. There's a rainbow-like variation to steel and it's welding options. One must choose wisely to make the most of the benefits outlined.

5: Building a hull from scratch is doable and likely the easiest part of the project. Finishing the rest of the vessel is the harder part... the quality of which is subject to the talent dedicated to the project.

6: Steel vs. fiberglass => Steel offers more strength, but greater weight. Compensating with more sail will only get you so far. Maintenance is different in steel, and is a matter of debate based on the level of perfection desired but for the purposes of discussion could be considered similar to fiberglass in terms of cost and effort for thumbnail purposes.

7: Steel vs. aluminum => Steel is heavier, aluminum doesn't require all the coatings (saving you $), but steel is cheaper... where do you want to spend your time and money. Aluminum needs special welding and environment. Strength of aluminum may not be comparable to steel, but may be more malleable which may offer other advantages during building and sailing. Aluminum also has a lot of variations so choosing an alloy should be done with care.

8: Building a boat for yourself and having one built for you are two very different exercises. Know which camp you're in and what kind of effort you're up for.

9: ......what am I missing....?

(and I'm really speaking in general terms here, we can muck in the quagmire of exceptions and specifications ad infinitum and it won't do most readers any good).

Thanks!
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  #478  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Raz:
You forgot the part about shooting your boat with guns.

Other than that and the fact that you have "distilled" a lot of the pure design elements out of the thread and some of those are very important, I'd say you summed it up quite succinctly.
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  #479  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I just received Brent's book in the mail. I have to say I'm really enjoying it. It feels like a I'm reading a historical piece from a different era. There was a time when with basic tools and a lot of work an ambitious man could make anything himself including a boat.
My dad built a few apartment houses by himself. Carpentry, cabinets, electrical site work every thing. They were small maybe 8 units all one floor and took maybe three years but he got it done.
I was apprenticed to a blacksmith when I was about 16. The guy was old, was a farrier as a young man. Lived through the change from horses to cars.
I made all the hinges and door handles for my dads house with his help.
The point was is that George could make just about anything metal in his forge.

Bret is from the same mindset. He has directions in his book on how to make an anchor windless, bilge pump, roller fuller and composting head among other ideas.

I agree that Bob Perry and Bret are never going to compete for a customer.

The average sailnet member is just not likely to be willing to use many of Bret's ideas on there glass boats or build a steel boat of his design.

I have what I think might be a novel reason why many sailnet members may want to buy his book and maybe even have it on board or scanned in and downloaded to their ipad if they can't spare the space.

If you are cruising in some remote area and break something the chances are high that with Bret's methods you could fix your boat with local help and materials and get on your way.

A few weeks saved, or maybe months depending on how the seasons fall would be worth the cover price and I found it a fun read in it's own right.

If you have any questions ask away.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Razcar View Post
So I've read this post through, and it seemed to start out well. It covered steel vs fiberflass, and eventually looped in aluminum. Even titanium was mentioned.

Then it devolved into a ridiculous something-or-other about BS's designs and claims and people picked teams and ganged up on one another.... offenses were made... people got banned, then it all came full circle, naval schooling class notes were passed out, and now I'm not sure what I'm left with.

So I'll summarize what I think I learned (since, yes, I'm one of the people interested in steel and was hoping to learn something). I hope y'all are nice when you correct me:

1: Every material has advantages and disadvantages in boatbuilding (not to make a distinction between boats or yachts).

2: Steel, like the others, requires it's own considerations respective to maintenance, construction abilities of it's owner, hull dynamics, etc. It's not the easiest thing to sort through for a hobby builder, but doable to a certain degree by a tenacious amateur (s.v. seeker comes to mind).

3: It's better suited for larger vessels than smaller ones. The benefits diminish the smaller the vessel (in general).

4. There's a rainbow-like variation to steel and it's welding options. One must choose wisely to make the most of the benefits outlined.

5: Building a hull from scratch is doable and likely the easiest part of the project. Finishing the rest of the vessel is the harder part... the quality of which is subject to the talent dedicated to the project.

6: Steel vs. fiberglass => Steel offers more strength, but greater weight. Compensating with more sail will only get you so far. Maintenance is different in steel, and is a matter of debate based on the level of perfection desired but for the purposes of discussion could be considered similar to fiberglass in terms of cost and effort for thumbnail purposes.

7: Steel vs. aluminum => Steel is heavier, aluminum doesn't require all the coatings (saving you $), but steel is cheaper... where do you want to spend your time and money. Aluminum needs special welding and environment. Strength of aluminum may not be comparable to steel, but may be more malleable which may offer other advantages during building and sailing. Aluminum also has a lot of variations so choosing an alloy should be done with care.

8: Building a boat for yourself and having one built for you are two very different exercises. Know which camp you're in and what kind of effort you're up for.

9: ......what am I missing....?

(and I'm really speaking in general terms here, we can muck in the quagmire of exceptions and specifications ad infinitum and it won't do most readers any good).

Thanks!
Raz,

We can definitely agree that there are some great steel boats, some wonderful aluminum boats, some beautiful wooden boats, and some awesome fiberglass boats....however none of them are BS boats...


I love a beautiful sailboat, no matter what it is made out of, but I think that these are just about some of the most beautiful. I admit it may be that I am sentimental about the wooden boats, their lines, the simplicity of the design which is simple yet highly functional and the material speaks to me. I would love to have a great big aluminum sailboat with all the toys and goodies, but to be honest I would probably be just as pleased, possibly even more pleased, to own one of these. ( I would want to update the electronics, and probably the head on most of them, but hey every sailor wants to have the best in both of those places).

For your viewing pleasure....

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