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  #4881  
Old 06-23-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Med:
I understood exactly what ytou were doing.

Hope you are getting good info on your headsail quewstion for your new boat. I have probably designed more double headsail rigs than any other living designer. I do know the answers but you are getting so much help I have decided to stay out of it. If you feel like you need the right answers I'm available.
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  #4882  
Old 06-23-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Med:
I understood exactly what ytou were doing.

Hope you are getting good info on your headsail quewstion for your new boat. I have probably designed more double headsail rigs than any other living designer. I do know the answers but you are getting so much help I have decided to stay out of it. If you feel like you need the right answers I'm available.
You understood? But did you laugh? Smirk? Eh, I'll try harder next time.

Thanks for the offer to help with the rig question. I know you have forgotten more about cutters (and other double headsail rigs) than most of us will ever know. I will take you up on your offer! PM Sent.

Thanks Bob,
MedSailor
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  #4883  
Old 06-23-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Med:
Yes, I smirked. Answer to your PM sent a couple of hours ago.
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  #4884  
Old 06-26-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
While 175 degrees of positive stability seems beyond belief for almost any boat, there are some items in his designs which Brent has described that do contribute to a higher limit of positive stability than might otherwise be expected. In other conversations, Brent has pointed out that his masts are also steel and that they are welded closed at the ends so they contain air and add inverted righting buoyancy. He also assumes that the pilot house will be dogged shut in heavy going and the volume of pilot house will also help right the boat.

Outbound, are you in Maryland ?

Jeff
There was a great article in December 89 issue of Cruising world on the subject of capsize. It gives the stability curve of an older design as having positive stability to 180 degrees. It was common on those older, narrower, deep hulled boats . Don't know if the article was archived. It shows how a slightly heavier rig actually reduces the odds of capsize, as Bob pointed out on the origamiboats site. The article points out how, when a wave hits a boat broadside, it takes longer for the mast to be set in motion than it takes for the wave to pass. Target archers use this principle with long stabilizers on target bows.
The steel tubing we use for masts is 6 inch OD with an 11 gauge wall, 7.54 pounds per foot, only slightly heavier than a solid 6 inch fir, or the 5 1/2 inch by 8 1/2 inch by 1 1/4 inch wall box sections commonly used on boats this size. When we began using steel masts, the material for a steel mast was $300, an aluminium extrusion, $6,000. Only two boats have had their steel mast changed for aluminium. Both had much larger tubing, 6 5/8th by 10 gauge wall, 9.35 lbs per foot. Both said the difference would have not been worth it had they had the lighter 6 inch tubing. Both said the difference was minimal. People who have done Pacific crossings and circumnavigations with steel masts have not felt the need to switch to aluminium. Two are just finishing circumnavigations at the moment.
Bob confirmed this, when earlier in this thread, he mentioned a client who spent a fortune on a carbon fibre mast ,only to find the difference in sailing was barely noticeable. The numbers were impressive, the reality far less so.
Yes aluminium is better choice, if you don't have to give up a lot of cruising to pay for them. Used aluminiumn masts are becoming far more available and much cheaper, but if you don't have the money or the mast, a steel mast will get you cruising for the time it takes to find an affordable aluminium mast.
Maybe,like most, you wont feel the need to change it. Very few have.

My aluminium hatches are as watertight as the lid on a pressure cooker, making wheelhouse buoyancy a major factor in ultimate stability , not an option with sliding hatches.

Last edited by Brent Swain; 06-26-2014 at 05:17 PM.
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  #4885  
Old 06-26-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
There was a great article in December 89 issue of Cruising world on the subject of capsize. It gives the stability curve of an older design as having positive stability to 180 degrees. It was common on those older, narrower, deep hulled boats .
Oh boy, here we go again.
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  #4886  
Old 06-26-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

BS :
You still don't get it.
"It gives the stability curve of an older design as having positive stability to 180 degrees."
Probably theoretically possible but at that angle, say 179 degs. there is so little Rm left that it's not going top do you much good. For practicality at that point you are going over. You are over. I have never seen a credible stabiliity curve with positive Rm to 180m degs. I don't care where you read it. Maybe some freak plank on edge type but "normal" boats, no way.

It is impossible to have any Rm at 180 degrees just as it is to have any Rm at zero degrees. VCG and CB are lined up at those angles and the boat has no Rm at all. You simply do not understand stability BS. Any boat has to heel; before there is any Righting Moment. This is simple NA 101. This is why some beamy boats are perfectly stable at 180 degrees inverted. They have NO Rm at 180 degs and almost none at 179 degs.

Picture telling your wife as you heel to 178 degrees, "Relax honey, we still have positive Rm."
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Last edited by bobperry; 06-26-2014 at 07:51 PM.
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  #4887  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I'm sure it was just a typo.

"BS Yachts - Designed by a dude who knows dangerously little, and built by dudes who know even less. Get yours today!"
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 06-26-2014 at 08:03 PM.
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  #4888  
Old 06-26-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Actually smack, as i have told you before. I am very happy with the design of my boat, and also very happy to be building it myself. Even if that means that "i know very little"

I think the fact of.the matter is that you don't know anything about these boats except for you initial biases.
they are all quite successful go anywhere boats.

Ohh, and where i come from "yacht" is a bad word...
We have boats.

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  #4889  
Old 06-26-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I seem to recall somewhere, BP can probably correct me on the actual figure......as he is alluding to, once you get to IIRC 140-150* of straight up, you are going to do a 360 whether you like it or not! So in reality, having a 180RM as BS is saying we should have, is probably not a good thing, to me that would be like saying the boat will be more stable upside down, than right side up. ALA the boat the went over during the Chi-Mac a year or two ago! Did a 180, and stayed there! or some of the SH Ocean racers, when they lose a bulb, they go to the 180 position.

I may be off the mark here in how I am typing, but brain seems to know what I am trying to get out.

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  #4890  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirtyfloats View Post
Actually smack, as i have told you before. I am very happy with the design of my boat, and also very happy to be building it myself. Even if that means that "i know very little"

I think the fact of.the matter is that you don't know anything about these boats except for you initial biases.
they are all quite successful go anywhere boats.

Ohh, and where i come from "yacht" is a bad word...
We have boats.

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I know dirty. I just can't help but swing at the slow pitches. You know how it is.

The little I know about steel boats I've learned in this thread. I've learned a lot from Brent. But most of it isn't all that great. I've learned a lot more from guys like Bob and Out and others who know a thing or two about the mathematics of design AND working with various materials (including steel).

I guarantee you that you know WAY more than I ever will about working with steel and understanding how put it together into something functional. I respect that. You know a lot. My comment was more about all the unfortunate people who have unfinished, rusting hulls in their backyards (many of them documented herein) - or, worse, those that actually "finished" their boat, learning as they went (i.e. - making tons of mistakes), then ended up selling it to an unsuspecting schlub. That's dangerous man!

As for me, my boat is a yacht. I like having a yacht. It's cool. And it's fast. And it will take me virtually anywhere I wanna go.

BUT, when I'm down at Cape Horn this winter, I'll probably be sailing it in a steel boat. So everything has its place. Brent just isn't able to see that. Maybe you are.
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 06-26-2014 at 11:27 PM.
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