Pros and cons of steel sailboats - Page 500 - SailNet Community

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post #4991 of 5317 Old 07-11-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

the way I see it is you dont mod the boat, you mod your sailing style

refitting is fine, but sail the boat you have at its best intended way, and suit your sailing skills to the boat

all too often you see boats that arent designed for a certain type of sailing completely destroyed and modded only to anger the owner after realizing his "redesign" didnt pan out like he wanted to

Im not saying a racing machine cannot be modded to cruise, what Im saying is dont make a motorsailor into a volvo ocean boat, and dont make a laser a cruiser...

when I see people complain or emphasize tankage especially fuel, and in many cases water as characteristics of an offshore or cruiser capable boat it irks me a bit...

you adapt to your boat, unless huge deficiencies or design errors are noted...

take note of design parameters, construction, strength, redundancy etc...

just sayin
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post #4992 of 5317 Old 07-11-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimbottles View Post
Francis Lee is about the same beam and 10' LOA and 15' LWL longer than my Swede55. She weights just a tad more at 19,000#s.

The Swede55 tended to lift over the waves much more than plunge through them and that has been my limited experience with Francis Lee on Puget Sound. And this was in the normal short chop square waves of Puget Sound.

(I suspect how fast/hard you were to sail her would also contribute to how she handled waves.)

The waves in the Pacific have tended to be of a much longer period than on the Sound (at least in my experience) so I doubt she would be much of a submarine if sailed in a seaman like manner out in the ocean.

Nothing I have seen so far in her manners would keep me from sailing her in the open ocean. She is (as I have said before) very well mannered.

My lovely wife of 46 years does not like drama while sailing and so far she is delighted with the Francis Lee's calm comfortable manners.
I'm curious how she will perform in the large rips we get here (Pt. Hudson, Cattle Pass on a big ebb, etc)....

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post #4993 of 5317 Old 07-11-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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I'm curious how she will perform in the large rips we get here (Pt. Hudson, Cattle Pass on a big ebb, etc)....
So far the couple rips she has gone through didn't seem to bother her at all either under sail or under power.

I think the narrow beam works well for her under just about all circumstances.

I have had to power her home directly upwind in 20-25Knots after some of the Thursday races and she punches right through the short steep square shaped chop with very little loss of speed.

So far I am very, very happy with the way this vessel has turned out. She has greatly exceeded my expectations and hopes.
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post #4994 of 5317 Old 07-11-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

When I designed FRANCIS I had in mind a nice, all round, good mannered vessel that would perform well in all conditions. If I had thought that in our typical tide rip/chop there would have been some behavioral anomaly I would have changed the design.

Simple as that.
If you are sitting there wringing your hands waiting for FRANCIS to show "the dark side" I'm afraid you are going to be in for a long wait.

This is far from my first design.

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post #4995 of 5317 Old 07-11-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Time for a compromise.



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post #4996 of 5317 Old 07-11-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
If you are sitting there wringing your hands waiting for FRANCIS to show "the dark side" I'm afraid you are going to be in for a long wait.


No hand-wringing here, Bob.. I was thinking her long waterline and narrow beam would be pretty useful in that case..

I was thinking she's long enough that she'd be sitting on top of a couple of those nasty square waves at the same time...

I remember something you said a while back about the ideal waterline for the Salish Sea...

David

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Last edited by djodenda; 07-11-2014 at 07:58 PM. Reason: Didn't read right.. Remember -> I Remember
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post #4997 of 5317 Old 07-11-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I think that Christian Hess's post# 4991 rightly gets to the heart of a bigger matter, namely the whole nebulous issue of defining what is an ocean going vessel, distance cruiser- and/or cruiser for that matter. It seems like so many of these discussions come down to individuals very narrow definitions of cruising, and therefore the 'necessities' that a cruising boat should include. And when an individual decides that his definition of curising is the only right definition, then any boat which does not meet that definition isn't a good cruising boat.

But in reality, we all define how we intend to use our boats, where we intend to sail, what we are comfortable with, the risks we are willing to take, the budget we can spend, and the benefits we demand. And it is within that collection of factors that the definition emerges and that a boat is suitable for its owner and that owner's useage.

And while there are a long list of boats that for any one of us would be very poor choice for our needs, tastes, and ambitions, many of these boats may be a perfect fit for some other person who ideally is the fellow who owns her.

So when I look at Frankie, I see a design which is precisely designed around that owner's needs, tastes, and ambitions and which seems to be precisely what the doctor ordered for that owner.

When the discussion shifted to whether FRANCIS could be a "trans-oceanic Cruiser", I would have to ask for whom. I would think that she could make a great trans-oceanic cruiser for someone whose primary interest was in the passage rather than grand accommodations once in port. Frankly, FRANCIS would be a far superior trans-oceanic Cruiser than the list of 50 year old Alberg-Tripp-Luders-Rhodes-S&S designs that seem to get dredged up everytime someone posts about going distance cruising. Certainly she should be a lot more seaworthy, seakindly, and faster, with more carrying capacity. She may actually be easier to handle in a broad range of conditions. People making long passages have chosen to eschew lifelines for all kinds of reasons. I believe that Pardeys did without lifelines for many years, as have many of the truly traditional and historic cruising boats that I have encountered in my life.

And for every owner who thinks his boat is perfect, and for every doubting critic, there is bound to be a major chasm formed by the way they see their own one true set of requirements and the way that others see their own one true light.

I saw this phenomina when I bought my own boat. When I bought my boat, my long term plan was to sail her for a decade or so on the Chesapeake and US east coast. Eventually I wanted to sail her to Europe and spend some years poking around the edges of the continent. I spoke to a collection of sister ship owners, quite a few had done major short-handed ocean passages and cruised long distance on sisterships. They descibed her as a bit spartan, not built for tall folks, and quite seaworthy and fast. They made a point that you have to be disciplined about not loading the boat up with a bunch of 'useless stuff', but that she had plenty of capacity to carry what was needed to feed, house and repair the boat and crew.

At the time that I bought the old girl, there was a lot of criticism of my choice. At one point, I read through the criticism and thought that they were right that Synergy's design could not do all the things these folks thought a cruising boat needed to do, but I only needed a cruising boat, which did the things that I wanted her to do, and she appeared to do those things very well.

It is the same for FRANCIS, she appears to do everything that Kim wanted her to do and more. If someone else chose her to make ocean passage, assuming that person was knowledgeable, they would size her up and say, she may not do everything that someone else thinks they they need, but she does precisely what I need. And if that person concluded that modifications were necessary, within reason the compromises and cost to make those modifications would make sense to that person even if they do not make sense to us, and might not have made sense to Kim or Bob when FRANCIS was conceived and constructed.

In other words, any problem with FRANCIS as an ocean cruiser comes from the mind of the person defining that problem from thier own point of view, rather than from inherent issues with FRANCIS herself.

Jeff


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post #4998 of 5317 Old 07-11-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Well said Jeff.
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post #4999 of 5317 Old 07-11-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Jeff said it better than my attempt a few posts back.

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post #5000 of 5317 Old 07-12-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats



















Messy fugly metal work makes my head explode, i am about to use a different steam fitter at work or start doing it myself again because he does the pipe runs in a way that so lacks any feng shui it looks like hell and is confusing to use and i get every-time i look at it
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If a dirty bottom slows you down what do you think it does to your boat
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