Pros and cons of steel sailboats - Page 528 - SailNet Community
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post #5271 of 5317 Old 08-31-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

[QUOTE=SloopJonB;2144729]Winston Churchill, "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject".

I would guess we all suffer that from time to time but a fanatic must maintain his rigid position or all is lost.
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post #5272 of 5317 Old 08-31-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Mark:
It's just after 5 am here now. It's dark. The lights are on in my buddies carport. I can see him rigging up his fishing gear. He's all excited after catching the first salmon of he year off the beach yesterday, nice Silver about 5 lbs.. I got zippo yesterday but I'll be out there this morning. Problem is I still have my spring and summer 6 lb. test trout line on. If I hook a salmon I'm toast.

Thanks for the kind words on my cooking. I try hard but I don't have that natural gift for it that makes someone a really great cook.

I don't mind the "Mecca" reference. I laugh it off. I know it's meant as a sign of respect and I gracefully accept that. Besides, it's always said in a sarcastic tone and we have a good chuckle.

There have been a couple posters here who know BS and say what a good guy he is. I suspect that so long as you agree with everything he says he's a fine chap on the surface. He is not someone I would ever choose to be around. I enjoy a good, rollicking debate with people who can put up a strong, cogent argument without devolving into shallow personal attacks. He seems to be unstable.

Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


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post #5273 of 5317 Old 08-31-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Here's a video that is testimony to the longevity of GRP boats. These old boats are pristine.

YACHT Modern Classics 2013 ? der Film - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin

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post #5274 of 5317 Old 08-31-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

So that is why it is so quiet here in Ludlow at the moment. Bob's band is not playing here this weekend! bummer, missed it by a weekend too late.

Only wish I could have gotten the boat here. Engine would not run more than 15-20 min then it shut down. I think I have it figured out why, it is made of steel and iron! yep, that has to be it, wood or glass or what ever would have stayed running........LOLOL

In actuality, probably bad diesel, or junk in the tank or?!?!?!?!

As long as it will run long enough, or I have a breeze to sail to shilshoal next sunday for the BOOBIE race, all is good! if any of you esteemed folks would liek to help, click the link, help me cheat my way to winning by buying a bouy! Oh, if you put a name in honor of, or memory of to someone with breast cancer, I ll put that person name on the main sail......

Marty

She drives me boat,
I drives me dinghy!
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
I also have a Catalina 27 that my family and I have spent most of the summer sailing on Georgian Bay.

Dont get your boat shoping advice from anyone who would buy a Catalina ( or a Hunter) .Such choices are solid evidence of their naivety.
Good to know. I will keep that in mind when reading your posts.
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post #5276 of 5317 Old 08-31-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
I have 2 houses already!
I have all the small stainless steel parts made for a Brent Swain 36. All the decks are cut out, rudder is built, more then half of the lead is collected. I have one of the two keels cut out and ready to put together.
I also have a Catalina 27 that my family and I have spent most of the summer sailing on Georgian Bay. I know what it takes to rebuild someone else's old production boat. They are cheep for a reason, because most of them are junk. The amount of time I have put into fixing up old production boats, I could have built a Brent Boat. The amount of time I put into rebuilding a 32' wooden boat I could have built 2 Brent boats!
This Catalina is the 5th boat I have owned and the building flaws are unbelievable, I hope this boat was slapped together on a Friday and finished out on a Monday, and they didn't build all their boats like this one!
I have been looking at cheep boats now with the thought to sail it for a year then strip it out and use the parts for my Brent boat. I have an offer on a 35' 1970s floating condo that has been upgraded and upgraded. It has 6 self trailing winches, over 400' of anchor chain and a beautiful mast and sails.It also has a deck and hull that is soaking wet!
Comparing this boat to one of Brent's is like comparing a 1985 dodge caravan to a Toyota land cruiser.

This was posted on the origamiboats site by tool and die maker James Pronk ( who has a room full of trophies for his metal working skills)

Dont get your boat shoping advice from anyone who would buy a Catalina ( or a Hunter) .Such choices are solid evidence of their naivety.
Is it just me ? When I read posts and quotes from BS and his brotherhood they all seem to have in common an underlying negativity and bitterness. Doesn't seem like a real fun group to hang with. They seem to also share the same grammar and spelling errors? Might all this insecurity and instability be due to a lack of education? Not really concerned one way or another but BS is one strange cat for sure.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Mark2gmtrans

Brent never seems to have anyone post anything positive about having met him, I am kind of wondering if Brent really exists, or perhaps he is just the product of an evil AI that plagues sailnet and other places with rude comments and photos of unfinished ugly boats...


Yes I have met the man...and no I didn't find him to be unstable,bitter,or a rum drinking alcoholic...But unless any of you good people know of a pi$$ing match that has a prize...then please leave me out of it...
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post #5278 of 5317 Old 09-02-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

This was one of the best posts made on origamiboats, a while back. Pretty much sums things up, very well.

---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :

Regardless of what material Bob likes or dislikes. We need to dig
deeper into our emotional reasons why we do what we do. The arguments
for and against steel have been settled have been done over a million
times. Advocates of each think they have the battle won. Now back to
the emotion....

Simply put most dreamers and can do types simply dont have the money
to engage a NA to design or even purchase a hull advocated by Bob
fullstop. I cant even recall when i last saw one of these hitech
hulls in Reunion, Capetown, Chrismas Islands, or wherever your
favourite remote cruising ground is. Yet i see plenty boats with
people who only have the basic means to deliver their dreams. I
always marvel that they have been on the water for years and some are
on third and fourth circumnavigations. Hey whats all that noise, its
six in the morning, head out of the hatch, JeeeeeSUS what the hell
its a hitech aircraft carrier French hull with maybe 12 crew. MMMMMM
formalities out of they way, Oh you only staying one day "we in a
hurry because the owner has to be back in France to run his dot com
business and is only on this one leg". This is the typical routine
for these high pressure types with their hitech boats, and surely
this is not the lifestyle or cruising style that most who build boats
or scrape and save dream about. To most the boat is an means to an
end, and so long as it meets the basic survival criteria it will do.
By enlarge metal boats feature heavy in this thinking. Just like the
vast majority drive everyday automobiles, only a minority of archair
warriors dream about Porsches knowing full well they will never use
it to its full capability or can hardly afford it, and is beyond the
role of basic transportation. If you are one of these dreamers you
will never get away, because your funds will be totally exhausted,
with cost overruns, and technical developements on the fly taking
this hitech approach. When the hull cracks are you going to fly the
builder and his crew out to Del Fuego to advise whether you should
continue in your boat or charter the Antinov to fly your hull home
for repairs? With due respect to Bob, you only have to be in Aukland
one or twice to see the reality of this situation, the quotes of $30K
seem to be reasonable for insurance damage on some minor mooring
incidents. The owners dont care, they fly home while the hull dries
out. Something the designers of these laminates have not addressed
regardless of kevlar or dyneema. This kind of disaster would destroy
most peoples cruising plans, so steel under these circumstance makes
logical sense. Its wrong of coarse for Bob, this is just part of the
game of hitech, you gotta have pain for gain Bob?? Even if it is
wrong on the Silicon Graphics workstation and finite element analysis
version 23, steel users dont give a damm, something some people
refuse to acknowledge.

What I largely see is a low tech fleet of slow(relatively) heavy
plastic, steel and ferro. Simply most cant afford the "ideal" boat,
and even if they could afford it could not spare the time for long
term cruising. I see time and time again the Techno Wizard boats on
the milk run from San Diego finnishing in Aukland, and low and behold
they fly home and get the crew to deliver the boat home. Not what
most long term cruisers are thinking about, the horizon will always
be there for them. Another fact is simply that the vast majority of
yachts go nowhere, the more hitech the boat is the faster you will
sail and probably you more likely to go nowhere. Very few of these
boats are really thought out well let alone be designed by somebody
who has actually cruised. This assumes most who build metal boats
want to cruise. Most others will be stuck in the marina with the
owners on the bar stool, saying see my miracle 99 overthere its built
out of fritanium fudge and its the best thing since sliced bread, i
bought it for cruising but my wife hates boats and prefers her
friends at the country club or the Newport Yacht club. It seems only
the affluent have the money to buy these boats, so presumably they
wont have the time to cruise.
It seems the vast majority of the hitech fleet fall into this
category and simply have a arrogant diposition and laugh at people
who happily cruise for years on 32 foot boats or anything that did
not cost a million. Considering that a hitech trailer sailor will
cost more than most steel boats, one wonders how logical it can be
that small hitech uncapable boat costs more than the average steel do
anything cruiser.

My personal view is that those hitech junkies they have long lost
the will to dream or be captured by romantic ideals. Unfortunately
carbon fibre and fudgy cores dont figure in this the romantic lines
of many cruisers dreams. I think most people who have practical
common sense will look at steel or old heavy plastic, those that cant
afford the classic plastic opt for building and most times its steel.
Its totally wrong to call these people fools and shoot them down with
unproven techno babble. Because simply at the end of the day
anecdotal evidence is in their favour. Its amazing occurence if some
el cheapo Beneteau which a kid can stick a screwdrive through does a
circumnavigation, yet the numerous steel hulls from 26 and up rarely
get a mention. It always amuses me that in the usa where most boats
are plastic and the huge media bias against anything economical and
under 40 feet i see sometimes more small cruisers and steel cruisers
in most ports. Someone is certainly missing the boat. The bias
towards production plastic boats and 44 foot plus is clearly
evident. Yet outside this unreality the evidence is exactly
opposite. So one really has to wonderS who is fooling who. I am
sorry to say Bob your reasoning is not part of common cruising
folklore and dreams, you need to work on some romantic cruising story
books featuring hitech, or start the Asmovian boat group where
members can determine if its shorter too Tahiti through a black
carbon fibre hole or whether the dynamics of H2O surface tension will
get your there without fixing or finding wormholes in the laminate.

SO what i am saying is that its nice being modern and technically
aware, but the boat hull is only about 1% of the total pie, and to
simply focus on the material when 99 other elements have to be
considered is wrong. If building in steel saves you money, time and
does the job who really cares about those other things. Just like
most of us in our daily lives know the space program is good for us
long term, we dont contemplate that the space shuttle tiles will be
on our keel in the future. We roof our houses in clay and use lead in
our keels. The sad fact is that regardless of how good these
materials are, there are only probably less than 5 builders in the
world who can do the kind of boats the Bob advocates.

Since this group is about people interested in building these kind
of simple egalitarian boats, i thought i would focus on these ideals,
and strengths of the philosophy of the designers and the people who
dare to dream and dont play the consumer orientated childish snobbery
games of life.The final comments is that there more web pages on
steel boats and cruising than hitech laminates and hitech boats, that
should tell you something.

Will

One name has been changed to protect the innocent and target the guilty.

Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"

Last edited by Brent Swain; 09-02-2014 at 07:00 PM.
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post #5279 of 5317 Old 09-02-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
This was one of the best posts made on origamiboats, a while back. Pretty much sums things up, very well.

---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :

Regardless of what material Bob likes or dislikes. We need to dig
deeper into our emotional reasons why we do what we do. The arguments
for and against steel have been settled have been done over a million
times. Advocates of each think they have the battle won. Now back to
the emotion....

Simply put most dreamers and can do types simply dont have the money
to engage a NA to design or even purchase a hull advocated by Bob
fullstop. I cant even recall when i last saw one of these hitech
hulls in Reunion, Capetown, Chrismas Islands,
or wherever your
favourite remote cruising ground is.
Ummm.... so all the boats in Capetown and Reunion Island are steel and lowtech now??

Reunion:


Capetown:



South Georgia? Sure, maybe they're all metal down there, but not in the 3 places he's named. Fiberglass does go there and is plenty suitable for the task if it suits the owner.

His rant about hitech [sic] boats doesn't make any sense to me either. Is a Tyana 37 a hightech boat? It's a perry boat, and they're out there making the dream happen....

MedSailor

I have a sauna on my boat, therefore I win.
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post #5280 of 5317 Old 09-02-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Gentleman 2 slips down is a retired union plumber. When he was a grunt in nam he promised himself he get a new sail boat and do blue water if he survived. He saved for 30+ years and bought a perry boat- a V 42. He's been back and forth to a the bvi' s several times. He has tens of thousands of miles under his keel on a GRP Perry boat. I've meet several of the owners of my sisterships. Most are self employed or were. Most saved for decades to end up with their outbounds. Although comfortable they are not the trust baby crowd. Virtually all do blue water. Most recent one was launched in China and sailed home by a couple and their young kids. Home is Oz. Virtually all are sailed by a couple. Ones I know do most if not all their boat maintenance not hired crew. Brent believe what you want. Please don't let reality get in the way.

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Last edited by outbound; 09-02-2014 at 08:36 PM.
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