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  #531  
Old 08-19-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Mark:
I think that was an unfair atttack on BS. He obviously knows steel and working with steel. Everyone mucks in here and contributes what they can. BS contributed to the discussion.
Fixed it for you, Bob, in light of the Texan apparently deciding it was safe to fire at your target of choice.
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  #532  
Old 08-19-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Marty:
You missed a great party. We had around 40 boats represented and present. Some people drive to the Rendezvous. One guy drove from Montana. The food was great and the music was good and the party went well into the night. Our "guest star" this year was Bob Berg, the real "Baba". I think we had one of each of the Baba's there including the pilot house 40 and a rare Baba 40 ketch. WILD HORSES was there so we had one alu boat at the Rendezvous but no steel boats. One of my newest custom design clients showed up with his wife and had a great time talking to the owners of my boats. I know BS thinks they are "foolish yachties' but many of them have done some serious passage making and are proud of their boats. We had an Islander 28 there that had attended the very first Rendevous over 30 years ago. We even had people show up who had previously owned a Perry boat but now they just come for the party. All in all it was a very satisfying weekend for me and my family including Violet who enjoyed herself.
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  #533  
Old 08-19-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by krisscross View Post
IMO if you build off someone else's plans, you are a builder, but if you design and build from scratch, you can claim to be a designer as well.
I can draw a plan for a house but that does not make me an architect.
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  #534  
Old 08-19-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by krisscross View Post
Perhaps that is true and I stand corrected - I have not been following this discussion in every detail and I'm sure I missed stuff.
I thought Brent has not only been building these boats but also designing them. IMO if you build off someone else's plans, you are a builder, but if you design and build from scratch, you can claim to be a designer as well.
I suppose it can become a game of semantics. But as an ex-architect, I've always believed that real design should drive the build process...not vice-versa.

Do you know if Brent invented the origami method? (Honest question.) If he did, that would lend credence to the title, though I still would be a little skeptical due to the severe limitations the process puts on the design. But, again, that's just me.

In any case, here's one of the best pieces of advice anyone can take away from these debates (from Alex Christie's site: Home - Origamiboats: The Art of Frameless Steel Boatbuilding)

Quote:
Read the experiences of others who have built these boats and sailed them on extended voyages, because honestly you need to see concrete examples of other people building and using these boats to believe in the concept. Don't just take the word of one person raving on his own website about it, do some solid research. The internet is full of people selling ideas that don't work, or ideas which require an engineering degree to sort out. Building a boat is a big investment, and no one makes any kind of investment without looking at all the angles.
PS - Here is a very good discussion that focuses a bit on the distinction. It starts out with this statement that I think sums up Brent's position very accurately:

Quote:
Brent Swain, a nomadic sailor of the BC coast, is a well known advocate and practitioner of this method of hull building which is popular along the BC coast of Canada and some are built in the PNW as well. Others have used this method in other countries and it seems to produce a hull in some percentage less man-hours than more traditional methods of framing.
http://www.metalboatbuilding.org/php...topic.php?t=71
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 08-19-2013 at 12:38 PM.
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  #535  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Mark:
Thanks for posting that pic of the alu Norseman. That guy was a real artist in alu. He was one of the most skilled "home builders" I have ever worked with. The steel boat was built by Amazon and has many miles on it. But it is a true
"yacht" and a far cry from the BS boats aesthetically.

We live on a beach where all the new houses are custom builds. Almost all of these are custom designs. Ours is a custom design by Chuck Schiff. I did all the interior details but I do not call myself "the designer" of my home. When I talk to other beach residents with sustom homes I often here,"I designed it." Then I ask, "Did you do the drawings?" Typically they say no but they did some sketches. If they didn't do the working drawings then I would not soncider them the designer of their house.

So is BS a designer? If he does his won drawings and builds to those drawings then I would call him the "designer" and the builder obviously. He must not be very proud of his drawings as I have never seen any posted here. My drawings are works of art and many, many boats have been built from them and are currently being built from them. I post my drawings with pride and challenge anyone calling themselves a "yacht designer" to post better drawings. In my office the design process is taken very seriously. I want the quality of the drawings to reflect the quality of the design work AND the quality I expect in the finished product.
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Last edited by bobperry; 08-19-2013 at 12:57 PM.
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  #536  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by mark2gmtrans View Post
...and everyone ...
Sorry, Tex, but I can represent myself, thanks. Maybe I missed the memo, but I don't think anyone elected you spokesman for "everyone."
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  #537  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by krisscross View Post
Mark, normally I enjoy your posts, but this one has just harshed my morning mellow...
Brent's boats apparently do appeal to some people because he has sold quite a few of them, and collectively they have logged hundreds of thousands of miles in waters all over the world. I would not mind owning one of them as I do like bilge keel boats and steel. I have a lot of respect for Brent as a designer and sailor - compared to him, I know squat. Obviously Bob Perry is a legend, and I would not get in the middle of these two guys talking shop.
It sounds like Tex missed his morning Prozac yet again.
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  #538  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
...

The only part of your statement that I would challenge is the bold part. I see very little that points to Brent as a "designer" in any context that would include Bob.

Brent is a builder. He has some very good, practical ideas on how to build stuff. But I don't think he is a "designer" any more than a carpenter is an architect. I think that is very evident in his arguments with Bob. Further, I think this "designer" moniker that Brent seems to want to assume is actually the source of a lot of the issues being argued. It just doesn't fit Brent, and it is an important distinction.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with being a good builder. But there's no reason to put a designer label where it's not appropriate.
I don't get your point. A sailboat is a complex machine you just cannot build it without knowing what you are doing. If Brent are doing the boats creating them from the beginning (hull, keel, ruder and rig) according to their own ideas then he is the designer of the boats he is building. For many time some of the best designers relied more in boat models and practical knowledge than on paper design. Then they continued to use wood hull models and paper designs and today they use CAD and complex programs to simulate the boat behavior on the water and fine tune the design.

I would not say that a designer that still relies mostly in paper designs and hull models is not a boat designer the same way I don't see how you say that Brent is not the designer of his boats even if he does not use a lot of drawings to design his boats. They all are designers since they all are creating their own boats.

Brent boats have the reputation to be tough, to sail relatively well if we take into account the price and the simplicity of building process.

Of course not all designers have the same status as boat designers and very few can be named as having been at the vanguard of yacht design and having contributed to real innovations and improvements on the Art. I am not sure if the Origami technique would be included as an innovation but I have no doubt that it contributes to produce less expensive sailboats, even if not as performant as others much more expensive to build.

Regards

Paulo
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  #539  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I'd have to agree that BS is a designer too. Now comes the how skilled vs others. Some other things that can get in the way of what one wants to say is a sliding scale of designers......well that can get into a deep disCUSSion shall we say.........like a WELL!

Like myself, I do have a landscape design degree. I can not legally call myself an architect, but in my field, ANYONE< can call themself a designer, even if they do not have any formal training at a school. Which frankly I do find a bit annoying.......but that is another story.

As far as teh difference between BS and BP, not sure if BP with the schooling etc he has can call himself an architect or not, but at least in my field, he would be if he has a 4 yr degree, with having taken a state test, and some in house training etc. I do not see that BS has this style of training per say.

I've at least described how "I" look at this issue from the field I have trained in.

Marty
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  #540  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Sure, anyone can be a "designer" and just as easy there can be "good designers" and 'bad designers". Just writing "designer" next to your name does not make you a good designer. I don't give a rat's patooty what you call me. I like Bob. I am a classical music fan so "Maestro" is fun and flattering. I am recognized by my peers as a good designer and that's all that matters to me. My designs speak for themselves and they speak loudly and often. Being surrounded, like I was this weekend, by a marina full of happy owners is prooof that I have done my job well. I don't believe writing something after your name proves anything other than you can write.
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