Pros and cons of steel sailboats - Page 55 - SailNet Community
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post #541 of 5317 Old 08-19-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Well

IMHP there are three

Design

Build

Engineering

And i believe this is were it runs off the track as i do a lot of design and build BUT depending on what it is i am building i have fairly limited engineering skills

For example when i hang a new crane up in the building i have to pay a PE to sign off that the existing beams will live with the new load









One of things that makes it possible for me to design and build a bicycle is that the tubes are sold pre=engineered as sets for specific uses and rider weights



I also build some fancy machine controls that tell why there not running qand even send me a email when there unhappy BUT you sure as heck could not use one on and elevator or traffic single
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post #542 of 5317 Old 08-19-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Tom:
I have used Ivan Erdevicki for almost all my engineering for about ten years. He lives in Vancouver part of the time and his home country of Monte Negro most of the time. Ivan, pronounced "Eeee-von" is a quality guy and a very clever designer himself, an ex-professional water polo player. You should visit his web site. He has done military boats for the Israeli navy. I have also work recently with Tim Nolan and Jim Franken from Port townsend on the Sliver Project. I draw the structure I want and how I want things shaped and the engineer tells me how much laminate to use where. It's a good way to work.

I had a tun in four years ago with the Washington State Board of Licensing. They sent me a terse letter saying that I did not have the qualifications to do what I was doing. I thought, "Shitski! Now you tell me." Then I sat down and wrote them a concise and equally terse reply outlining what I had been doing for the past 35 years. I got a very nice letter back that said, basically, "Never mind." I felt pretty good about that.

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post #543 of 5317 Old 08-19-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Sure, anyone can be a "designer" and just as easy there can be "good designers" and 'bad designers". Just writing "designer" next to your name does not make you a good designer. I don't give a rat's patooty what you call me. I like Bob. I am a classical music fan so "Maestro" is fun and flattering. I am recognized by my peers as a good designer and that's all that matters to me. My designs speak for themselves and they speak loudly and often. Being surrounded, like I was this weekend, by a marina full of happy owners is prooof that I have done my job well. I don't believe writing something after your name proves anything other than you can write.
Bob, it ain't all about you.

AIUI, to call yourself a "Professional Engineer" in most (all?) countries you need to not only have trained as one but also be registered with the local Engineering board, whoever that might be. Likewise, to call yourself a "Naval Architect" you need to be a paid-up member of the Institute of Naval Architecture (in the US) or the R.I.N.A. (in the UK) or similar institutions in other countries, and there's a number reasons for doing this:
  1. It advertises that you are willing to be accountable to your industry peers in the work that you do,
  2. It means you commit to update yourself in the latest methods and techniques as passed down by that Institute,
  3. It gives your clients the satisfaction of knowing there is an authority they can go to when something you put on paper heads to the bottom, and
  4. It gives you some measure of protection when the unthinkable happens..
So, you're right: writing "Designer" or even "Naval Architect" after your name doesn't mean you are a "good designer" - or a "bad designer" either - but being able to legitimately advertise the fact means your clients should feel more comfortable about forking out mountains of $$$ for your work since they are better protected against something going wrong. ..and in some cases (like the Engineers one) it's required by law.

Hope that helps.

-
"Honestly, I don't know why seamen persist in getting wrecked in some of the outlandish places they do, when they can do it in a nice place like Fiji." -- John Caldwell, "Desperate Voyage"

Last edited by Classic30; 08-19-2013 at 07:41 PM.
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post #544 of 5317 Old 08-19-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

No Hart:
That doesn't help much. Technically you are correct but you don't address the "some can and some can't regardless of initials after the name issue and it's huge.

I once had a U of Mich graduate naval architect come and apply for a job in my office. He already had business cards printed out saying he was a naval architect. He was a nice guy so I thought I'd give him a try. I sat him down at a drawing board and watched for 2.5 days while he struggled mightily and got nowhere with the re-design of a Tayana 37 interior. I was patient but I finally had to saty to him, "You can't do it can you?" and he said no he coudn't. But he was a licensed naval architect. He just couldn't design a boat. Want more stories like that? I have a bunch.

Hartley: This weekend at times it seemed to be all about me and I enjoyed it. I am very comfortable in that environment that I created. I do my best to try to make it all about the boat owners. It's very simple, it's about the boats and their owners. I think we strike a decent balance. From time to time a little idolitry creeps into it but my wife is always there and as she once said to me, "I think I am going to throw up."

A man once said to me, "Imagine you had never lived. Now look around this harbor and think of what changes that would have meant to these people."

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Last edited by bobperry; 08-19-2013 at 09:21 PM.
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post #545 of 5317 Old 08-19-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
No Hart:
That doesn't help much. Technically you are correct but you don't address the "some can and some can't regardless of initials after the name issue and it's huge.

I once had a U of Mich graduate naval architect come and apply for a job in my office. He already had business cards printed out saying he was a naval architect. He was a nice guy so I thought I'd give him a try. I sat him down at a drawing board and watched for 2.5 days while he struggled mightily and got nowhere with the re-design of a Tayana 37 interior. I was patient but I finally had to saty to him, "You can't do it can you?" and he said no he coudn't. But he was a licensed naval architect. He just couldn't design a boat. Want more stories like that? I have a bunch.
Bob, sorry if you think I'm surprised - 'cause I'm not. I, personally, could give you a bunch of very similar stories about engineering graduates.

{RANT} What you speak of comes down to two things: (a) education and (b) experience - and with the demise of industry apprenticeships and cadetships, etc. etc. that's what remains: Highly-qualified inexperience. And it ain't just the "yacht designing" industry that is having those issues - it's in engineering, health, law, accountancy and a host of other professions as well. That's the world we live in - and "Institutes" world-wide have done themselves a disservice by kowtowing to the populists and allowing it to get that bad.
** /RANT}

Anyway, enough of the doom and gloom:

If you're interested, the way I deal with it is to hire raw, green, graduates straight out of Uni (untainted by the workplace, you might say), test their aptitude for the task, put their qualifications on the shelf (or the wastepaper basket, if more appropriate) and set them to work for a year or so under somebody experienced - an "unofficial cadetship", if you will. That takes time and costs $$ and you get no thanks for it - but it works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Hartley: This weekend at times it seemed to be all about me and I enjoyed it. I am very comfortable in that environment that I created. I do my best to try to make it all about the boat owners. It's very simple, it's about the boats and their owners. I think we strike a decent balance. From time to time a little idolitry creeps into it but my wife is always there and as she once said to me, "I think I am going to throw up."

A man once said to me, "Imagine you had never lived. Now look around this harbor and think of what changes that would have meant to these people."
I'm really glad that the weekend was a success, Bob - you deserve it! You are also very fortunate to have a wife who can gently cap your ego when required.. many don't and have destroyed their own reputation in the process.

By all means, keep doing what you're doing.. but if you wrote to the relevant Institute I, for one, wouldn't be surprised in the least if they offered you an Honorary Membership right away, simply based on your demonstrated qualifications from The School Of Hard Knocks. Something else to decorate the mantelpiece.
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Last edited by Classic30; 08-19-2013 at 10:24 PM.
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post #546 of 5317 Old 08-19-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Cam,

I've noticed the same thing. BUT, what is also harder currently on a local level, is MANY places are wanting one to have 2-5 yrs experience, and for MANY like one of my daughters trying to get a job out of college, getting that experience is hard, as no one wants to hire them! Danged if one does sometimes, danged if you do!

Locally here where BP and I am, your comments re the how you get to be an engineer/architect etc seems to be equal in how you go about it.

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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
Cam,

I've noticed the same thing. BUT, what is also harder currently on a local level, is MANY places are wanting one to have 2-5 yrs experience, and for MANY like one of my daughters trying to get a job out of college, getting that experience is hard, as no one wants to hire them! Danged if one does sometimes, danged if you do!
Hi Marty, yeah, it's no different over here.

What you're seeing in "wanting 2-5yrs experience" is companies not willing to pay the high cost/risk of the "cadetship" I mentioned above and hoping (not unreasonably) to pick up someone already "pre-trained" by someone else! Fact is, with big business not offering cadetships like they used to, if it takes 2yrs to train someone green for the job, then the only available candidates that will fit their "2-5" position will be those who didn't like their last job... and so the cycle continues.

Anyway: Knowing full well that the company in question will have to do some level of "re-training" to the new environment no matter who they get, IMHO, it's a rough ride (think, deep end of the swimming pool) but the way to approach these people is for your daughter to apply anyway, and at the interview confess her inexperience, countered by a willingness to learn quickly on the job and a willingness to commence on reduced pay until fully trained (for, say, a year, with a performance review at the end of the year).

That should perk the prospective employer's interest because what they really want, but haven't asked for, is someone who (a) knows what they're doing (is no idiot) and is willing to learn fast (aptitude) and (b) isn't going to cost them a fortune to re-train (the cost), only to have them leave a year later (the risk). It's a 2-way street.

Try that.

..with apologies for adding to the significant thread drift.

-
"Honestly, I don't know why seamen persist in getting wrecked in some of the outlandish places they do, when they can do it in a nice place like Fiji." -- John Caldwell, "Desperate Voyage"

Last edited by Classic30; 08-19-2013 at 11:42 PM.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Cam,

I do agree that is what has to happen, re with new recruits to a degree. I've had a few that in reality, needed more than the paper work showed. I've even been there done that at times with new products I need to install etc. Its something we all need to know, ie we all have to learn it at some point in time, include the almighty BP! much less us nobody's!LOLOL

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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

If I came hard at BS it is because he seems to be saying, often, that Bob, who has literally thousands of boats on the water is unqualified to design a steel boat. Bob has done boats in every material available, or Bob's boats have been done in them, whichever you want to call it, I even found one very nice looking Bob Perry design in ferrocement. BS is probably an alright guy, in person, just like most of us, the things we type are easy to take as being more harsh than we mean them to be. Me personally, I get a lot of grief from certain elitists for being from Texas, but I just figure it is because they need someone to pick on to make them feel better and I generally let it go.

BS boats could be okay boats, with a lot of help, but since Brent seems intent on turning off people who truly could help him, he gets little to none. Bob does not need me to take up for him, I just like his designs. I think they are very nice, and from the ones I have seen in person they are very well laid out, from the few photos of the BS boats I have seen only one so far has been anywhere near okay looking. I have to say that they do look more or less sturdy, but just not very pretty. I like beautiful boats, which is why I like some of Bob's designs more than others, and Bob probably does as well. I also really like most of Paul Kettenburg's designs, a lot of Roger Long's, and many others, especially the ones done in wood. It is my right to like what I like, and you each have the same right, and like it or not, more people have liked Bob's boats than those of Brent, and since people seem to have voted in an overwhelming way with their wallets on that issue, I would say BS could learn a lot if he were not so adamant that his way is the only way.

We all tend to do that from time to time, myself included, but I have done more listening and paying attention than I have done my way or not at all. The best thing I could say to BS is that if he would just stop trying to tell people that his boats will pretty much survive a direct hit from a moon being dropped on them without getting scratched up, and would listen to people with the been there done thats to be able to tell him things that would actually help him, he would sell a lot more boats. Of course so far that has not happened, and I doubt it will, so I will continue to have fun poking at him, because it is about as entertaining as watching the cat chase the laser pointer, almost, and the cat needs a rest now and then.
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post #550 of 5317 Old 08-20-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I have had interns from all over the world. I have even had some of the live in my house while they did their internships. Some of these interns have gone on to very succesful carreers in yacht design, Mark Mills in the UK, Tim Kernan in So Cal, Paul Bieker in Seattle. I hired several interns to come back and work for me. This was a good way to find help as I already knew exactly what they knew and what they could do. I was never very concerned about degrees although I did prefer people with a degree as it showed me they could at least get one job done. I have been very lucky over the years to have had some very skilfull help in the office.

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