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  #61  
Old 12-02-2012
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Tanley, forgot your other question.
I've enjoyed the lake much this summer in the best scenerio possible- on other people's boats. Love doing that. With our one year old and a busy work year we kept our Tartan 37 on the hard up in Beacon Bay marina at the north end of the lake. I think it's a bit too much for the lake and I'm going to either take it up the east coast or to the great lakes for some more extended cruise time in the summer.
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  #62  
Old 12-03-2012
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
That does not make sense an aluminium boat is not lighter than a cored fiberglass boat and a fiberglass boat is less expensive.
Paulo
NO ENGINES:
16 Foot Boston Whaler cored fiberglass, 950 pounds, $25,000
16 Foot Keylargo Fiber glass, 975 pounds, $10,000
16 Foot Duroboat Aluminum, 350 pounds, $4999

Looks like Aluminum is 1/3 weight and 1/2 price.
Bryce

Last edited by BryceGTX; 12-03-2012 at 10:21 PM.
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  #63  
Old 12-03-2012
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I guess that everybody knows that weight for weight Aluminum is considerably stronger than steel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlaskaMC View Post
And, offshore it is the same thing. Weight AND durability is the issue. These things take MAJOR beatings that a fiberglass boat would not even make it 100 yards from the launch.
Durability is a broad subject. The specific issue of durability I refer to is one of fatigue strength. This has little to do with other metrics of strength. Many who think aluminum is stronger than Steel invariably compare alloy aluminum with mild steel. Clearly alloyed steels can easily be 5-10 times stronger than aluminum.

Fatigue strength, on the other hand refers to a stuctures ability to resist bending/vibration. Even the alloyed aluminum is rarely a match for steel in fatigue strength given the same size.

I have also seen an interesting discussion of impact resistance of fiberglass versus other materials. It argues the point impact such as a rock hit or bowling ball or sledge hammer is representative of the distributed force of a wave on a hull. Seems to mirror your discussion. The way I see it, they are unrelated. Besides the problem of point impact not translating to distributed force by a reasonable model, in the very least, such tests fail to consider fatigue.

Bryce

Last edited by BryceGTX; 12-03-2012 at 10:47 PM.
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  #64  
Old 12-03-2012
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Light and strong is not an attribute that is good only on sailboats, many other type of boats have advantages to be light and strong and that's why so many boats are built in Aluminum in the US and everywhee.

Paulo
Lets assume that aluminum is the best boat building material. It is light, strong, doesn't rust, reasonable cost. Clearly in a free market economy, a material like aluminum, given its great advantages must be the boat building material of choice.

So lets look at reality. Millions of millions of small aluminum boats have been built in the US and more being built every day. This means millions upon millions of consumers experienced with aluminum boats.

Like all boaters, these millions of small aluminum boat buyers dream of their next boat. And of course it will be bigger. Clearly these incredibly knowledgeable buyers represent millions of years of experience with aluminum boats.

And since they realize the fantastic advantages of aluminum boats they obviously buy another aluminum boat right?? Here is the problem, the number of manufacturers of aluminum boats drops to only a few for boats 25 feet and above. On the other hand, the number of fiberglass boat manufacturers is in the hundreds.

Clearly, the these boaters are buying fiberglass boats when they upgraded!!! And these buyers are clearly spending considerably more for the boat than if it were aluminum. Question then becomes, why are these millions of buyers not following the PCP economic model of aluminum boat buying? Why aren't they buying big aluminum boats?
Bryce

Last edited by BryceGTX; 12-03-2012 at 10:57 PM.
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  #65  
Old 12-03-2012
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Gotta chime in on why people go from small aluminum boats to relatively larger fiberglass one's especially fishing boats. I'm from MN and have had both. Now I've converted to sailing a 27' fiberglass boat on Tampa Bay.

Aluminum fishing boats...ie Lund, Alumacraft, are less expensive than a similar sized fiberglass boat. They are easy to trailer so you can take it with your light truck or crossover SUV to whichever of the 10k lakes in MN you want to fish that day.

Since they are lighter they ride really rough. Eventually the walleye or bass fisherman get's tired of taking a pounding and buys a bigger truck and a fiberglass fishing boat. They are not at all concerned about hitting a submerged shipping container and sinking 1000 miles out in the ocean. They do care about how much drier the ride is on the heavier boat.

Do what I'm saying is that you're not comparing apples to apples. I do wonder sometimes why they don't build smaller aluminum sailboats though.
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  #66  
Old 12-03-2012
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by BryceGTX View Post
NO ENGINES:
16 Foot Boston Whaler cored fiberglass, 950 pounds, $25,000
16 Foot Keylargo Fiber glass, 975 pounds, $10,000
16 Foot Duroboat Aluminum, 350 pounds, $4999

Looks like Aluminum is 1/3 weight and 1/2 price.
Bryce
So you think these boats are comparable?



Key Largo Fishing Boats
Key Largo Fishing Boats
Duroboat - The World's Finest Aluminum Fishing Boats

A Boston whaler with 16ft does not even exist. Exist a 150 (15' 4'') and a 170(17') and nobody would remember to compare these boats with the Duroboat except you

Boston Whaler | Super Sport Boats | Sport Boats | Fishing | Wakeboarding | Yacht Tender

As usual it is impossible to have a serious discussion with you, or maybe it is my fault, anyway stay with your point that seems to be that the Aluminum boats are cheaper than fiberglass boats and have not only serious problems in what regards metal fatigue as they will not last as long as fiberglass boats.

I guess that explains why on the used market a 20 year old aluminum boat has a value of about the double of a fiberglass boat and I am not talking about luxurious boats with exceptional interiors but about good cruising boats

I am out of this thread that is about steel boats, that as all adequate materials to build boats have advantages and disadvantages, not about aluminum boats and I have already talked to much out of topic. My apologies to the OP.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 12-03-2012 at 11:53 PM.
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  #67  
Old 12-06-2012
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
A Boston whaler with 16ft does not even exist. Exist a 150 (15' 4'') and a 170(17') and nobody would remember to compare these boats with the Duroboat except you

Paulo
Boston Whaler made a number of 16 foot boats. On the other hand, their 16 foot boats are considerably wider than the Aluminum boat I mention. Not a good comparison. However the 15'4" boat is only a bit wider and slightly shorter making a better boat to compare to. Perhaps if you had looked closer, you would have noticed.

The way I see it, Boston Whaler represents the "Gold Standard" in cored hulled fiberglass boat. So its inclusion makes sense.
Bryce

Last edited by BryceGTX; 12-06-2012 at 02:51 AM.
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  #68  
Old 12-06-2012
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by lans0012 View Post
Gotta chime in on why people go from small aluminum boats to relatively larger fiberglass one's especially fishing boats. I'm from MN and have had both. Now I've converted to sailing a 27' fiberglass boat on Tampa Bay.

Aluminum fishing boats...ie Lund, Alumacraft, are less expensive than a similar sized fiberglass boat. They are easy to trailer so you can take it with your light truck or crossover SUV to whichever of the 10k lakes in MN you want to fish that day.

Since they are lighter they ride really rough. Eventually the walleye or bass fisherman get's tired of taking a pounding and buys a bigger truck and a fiberglass fishing boat. They are not at all concerned about hitting a submerged shipping container and sinking 1000 miles out in the ocean. They do care about how much drier the ride is on the heavier boat.
This is exactly the answer I was looking for. Your experience with aluminum boats mirrors my experience and likewise that of most aluminum boat owners.

It clearly illustrates why big aluminum boats are not popular. And it goes directly to the root of the discussion of this thread. The OP clearly mentions both aluminum and steel boats. He is looking for the experienced opinion of metal boat owners.
Bryce
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  #69  
Old 12-06-2012
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by BryceGTX View Post
This is exactly the answer I was looking for. Your experience with aluminum boats mirrors my experience and likewise that of most aluminum boat owners.

It clearly illustrates why big aluminum boats are not popular. And it goes directly to the root of the discussion of this thread. The OP clearly mentions both aluminum and steel boats. He is looking for the experienced opinion of metal boat owners.
Bryce
Not the case here in the Pacific Northwest where we have lots of floating logs and stuff to hit. Aluminium is the preferred premium boat over FG in all sizes.

The USCG safeboats are made here and most guys round here would kill for something like this 1997 Sea Master 28 Cruiser Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Money is the only thing keeping FG 'popular' round these parts. When you go to alaska where it's even rougher, and they do have more money, ALum easilly outnumbers FG.
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  #70  
Old 12-07-2012
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
One of the big advantages of steel is zero deck leaks, ever, as welding down your hardware eliminates any chance of them ever leaking. No matter how rough it gets, you always have a dry bunk to sleep in at the end of the day, on a well insulated steel boat. There is no way you can get bolted down gear on a fibreglass deck that's permanently water proof, with zero chance of leaking. Fibreglass decks always end up leaking, eventually.
There is no way you can get a fibreglass boat as impact resistant as a steel hull. That is why so many former fibreglass boat cruisers tend to gravitate towards steel. The increase in peace of mind, when blasting along at hull speed on a moonless night, in a steel hull, has to be experienced to be appreciated.
'Many former' is an gross exaggeration. Most yachties expire leaving a fiberglass legacy. Nor are most sailors circumnavigators or transoceanic sailors. Most rarely get out of sight of land.

A steel cleat welded to a sunken hull with rusted holes might not leak, ever. Let the divers boggle. Impact resistance is actually a function of flexibility, not hardness. Unless we're talking a turret on a tank. I smell a mania, or a greedy agenda. But let freedom ring.

Maintenance is a given with any physical thing, whether it's a house, a vessel, or an auto. Or even a human body. So one must sometimes re-bed a cleat or other thru-deck attachment, big stinking deal - at least it's where you can detect and work with the problem without having to haul the hull.

Steel has its place in industrial hulls and like applications. But for someone who just wants to enjoy sailing with fewer worries, fiberglass is the way to go. There's new 'wonder glues' that essentially 'weld', melting the glass into an hermetic bond, for those wishing to seal their decks.

I have suffered with wooden toe-rails on a glass deck, so I know that mixing dissimilar materials, regardless of what they are, is a formula for trouble. Teak laminates may be pretty, but that glue dries out under tropic suns.
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