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  #721  
Old 08-27-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Brent:
We never costed out an alu deck. It just was never in the picture. We were after light weight and a beautful deck structure and composite was the way to get it and a method this builder was very familiar with. It wasn't cheap so it's not for you Brent. The result is very handsome.

Still waiting for the documented "lost at sea" story. Or are you trying to change the subject?
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  #722  
Old 08-27-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

In a vain and possibly quite pointless attempt to get this thread back on topic..

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Wonder if any one has experience with explosive bonding. Believed used to get leak free bond between steel hull and aluminum deck. Never understood why that wouldn't set up a battery with the aluminum disappearing. Believe they make strips- steel one side aluminum the other then weld them in at transition from hull to deck.
Also called metal-metal bonding.

There are a few different ways to do it (including using rather dangerous explosive strips), but the result is the same: mixing of the two metals at a molecular level and the join is seamless and seriously permanent.

You need an electrolyte between two surfaces to form a battery but because the two metals are in "intimate contact", a battery can't be set up - hence none of the electrolytic action you might expect in a typical bonding situation.

It is widely used in everything from aircraft and spacecraft manufacture to high-tech ship-building but even after decades of development it is still a pretty expensive way to join metals.
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Last edited by Classic30; 08-27-2013 at 07:52 PM.
  #723  
Old 08-27-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I have held that material in my hand and marvelled at it. I think they used it on Navy ships where they wanted a light weight super structure. I forget the name of the specific material I saw. Ther was almost a saw toothed layer where the two metals joined. I'm surprised that Brent doesn't know something about this.
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  #724  
Old 08-27-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

"Bimetalic transition inserts" I Googled it. Took three Google tries.
That is not the name I recall.
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  #725  
Old 08-27-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

This type of bonding was discussed on the origami boats site a while back. One guy said they tried it for a few days, threw away the strips, and bolted the aluminum cabin on a stainless strip, welded to the steel decks. I have heard the Canadian coast guard built several steel hulls and decks with aluminium cabins, which were successful. On a sail boat, with such small and light cabinsides, switching from steel to aluminum at the cabin top cabin side joint would make far more sense.
While a good explosive contact between the two may eliminate corrosion there, they are still two dissimilar metals, right next to one another, in electrical contact. However, I have heard this has not been a problem. Maybe an overlapping layer of epoxy on both sandblasted surfaces solves the problem. I have heard that putting the transition point well above the deck splash zone minimizes corrosion on the aluminium.

Bob. Do you record every radio and TV documentary and news item, and save every newspaper clipping you ever come across, in case someone asks you, decades in the future, for a reference? Do you try keep them all on a 31 footer ,while trying to live aboard?
Didn't think so!
Neither do I!
Time you got back to reality!
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Last edited by Brent Swain; 08-27-2013 at 08:02 PM.
  #726  
Old 08-27-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I got lost at sea on one of Bob's boats. Best 14 years of my life.
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  #727  
Old 08-27-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

BS- My mom only raised gentlemen so I'll try to do this politely. I cruise. I go offshore. I think coastal is actually more dangerous than offshore as more things to hit. I think we get very reliable weather for 3-5d but questionable after that.I have no expectation of high latitude sailing. I look at the gribs every day offshore. I think I'm safer in a boat with a collusion bulkhead that sails well,comfortably and fast than one that does not. My time at sea is likely to be shorter and more pleasant. I have never had a hard grounding and maybe one or two soft touches in 3+ decades of sailing. I trust but verify. I have one life. I pay attention to my senses, the GPS, DR, my instruments. Your inability to post sailing polars or basic statistics about your boats means you only have your word to back you up. I know the performance of my boat and Bob's boats. Your repetitive diatribe does not move the discussion forward. The original post asked for the pluses and minuses of steel boat. We have heard you believe they are more puncture proof. I believe running into the corner of a semi submersed container will hole them. You believe they will survive a hard grounding. I believe hard groundings should be avoided and unless the sacrifice made for day to day sailing is minor that is not a major concern. You believe they require no more maintenance than a glass boat. I believe that may be true but requires skills I do not currently have and minor neglect may place the boat at risk. Bob has repetitively asked for any OBJECTIVE evidence of your claims. Your stories were of interest the first time you told them. At this point they are old. I believe you have a store of knowledge I don't have and wish you would share that instead of involving yourself in an seemingly endless and fruitless defense of your boats.
What can be done to decrease maintenance concerns on steel boats?
What can be done to mitigate the poor performance related to hull weight?
What can be done to improve hull shape?
What are the upsides and downsides of integrated tanks?
Are hybrid boats (steel hull, Al or cored decks) worth the effort?
Are there particular concerns about wiring, electronics, compass etc. and how are they circumvented?
What are particular concerns in designing interiors and building them in steel hulls?
What things should not be done by neophytes like me when building in steel i.e. what's better left to professionals?
Is it easier to build upside down and roll or right side up?
Sharing your knowledge and experience may lead more people to embarking into steel than the endless argument you seem hopelessly trapped in.
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  #728  
Old 08-27-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

No Brent, obviously not. Let's keep this adult.
But I don't shoot my mouth off with made up stories and "facts" whenever I need them to bolster another BS argument. That's the difference. You want to say someting to attack me you had better be ready to back it up. Problem is that you make stuff up. You have yet been able to back up any of your attacks. Your credibility here is pretty low.

Are you going to be angry all night? Again? Do you spit when you talk?
What a pita that must be. I think I'll go put a new Buzz Bomb on my pole and see if I can hook another salmon today.

Thanks Aeventyr: That was nice of you to say. I'm amazed you are still alive.
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  #729  
Old 08-27-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdw View Post
It surprised me that none of Calahan's books have been "Gutenberged". Well out of copyright and no longer in print they certainly qualify. I know I know I know ... turning pages is it own reward but its a damn sight easier to read a back lit tablet when snugged up in the cockpit at 0200 than a book.

Anyone interested should search Abe or Alibris. I ordered a copy yesterday for a couple of bucks. Postage to Oz was twice the cost of the book. Grrrr.
Off off topic but Calahan arriived yesterday. What a lovely book. Definitely going into the recommended reading section.
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  #730  
Old 08-27-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
BS- My mom only raised gentlemen so I'll try to do this politely. I cruise. I go offshore. I think coastal is actually more dangerous than offshore as more things to hit. I think we get very reliable weather for 3-5d but questionable after that.I have no expectation of high latitude sailing. I look at the gribs every day offshore. I think I'm safer in a boat with a collusion bulkhead that sails well,comfortably and fast than one that does not. My time at sea is likely to be shorter and more pleasant. I have never had a hard grounding and maybe one or two soft touches in 3+ decades of sailing. I trust but verify. I have one life. I pay attention to my senses, the GPS, DR, my instruments. Your inability to post sailing polars or basic statistics about your boats means you only have your word to back you up. I know the performance of my boat and Bob's boats. Your repetitive diatribe does not move the discussion forward. The original post asked for the pluses and minuses of steel boat. We have heard you believe they are more puncture proof. I believe running into the corner of a semi submersed container will hole them. You believe they will survive a hard grounding. I believe hard groundings should be avoided and unless the sacrifice made for day to day sailing is minor that is not a major concern. You believe they require no more maintenance than a glass boat. I believe that may be true but requires skills I do not currently have and minor neglect may place the boat at risk. Bob has repetitively asked for any OBJECTIVE evidence of your claims. Your stories were of interest the first time you told them. At this point they are old. I believe you have a store of knowledge I don't have and wish you would share that instead of involving yourself in an seemingly endless and fruitless defense of your boats.
What can be done to decrease maintenance concerns on steel boats?
What can be done to mitigate the poor performance related to hull weight?
What can be done to improve hull shape?
What are the upsides and downsides of integrated tanks?
Are hybrid boats (steel hull, Al or cored decks) worth the effort?
Are there particular concerns about wiring, electronics, compass etc. and how are they circumvented?
What are particular concerns in designing interiors and building them in steel hulls?
What things should not be done by neophytes like me when building in steel i.e. what's better left to professionals?
Is it easier to build upside down and roll or right side up?
Sharing your knowledge and experience may lead more people to embarking into steel than the endless argument you seem hopelessly trapped in.
To reduced maintenance ,start with clean steel . I get all my plate wheelabraded and primed with cold galvanizing primer, 87% zinc dry film by the steel supplier. My current boat was done that way and still has the 29 year old paint job, no problems. I gave mine 30 gallons of epoxy tar on a 31 ft boat, plus a coat of enamel every few years. Moitessier said the French navy puts ten coats of paint on before launching. The thicker the better. Most steel boat maintenance problems come from too thin a paint job, or painting over rust or mil scale. For many commercially built boats in BC, it comes from zero paint inside. Spat foam is not adequate protection for the inside of a steel boat. Three or more coats of epoxy tar inside before spray foaming is needed.
Wasser makes a urethane tar which is just as good as epoxy tar, the same price, and much more forgiving in recoat times. They also make some good zinc primers.
Flat well painted surfaces rarely chip. Corners are the main source of paint chipping. Trimming all outside corners with stainless reduces maintenance by roughly 80%. That is why I put stainless cabinside handrails on the edge of the cabinside, instead of inboard. It also makes things a bit safer
To minimize maintenance, designers should simplify things as much as possible, eliminating corners and nooks and crannies, or do them in stainless where possible. I met a guy with a Waterline boat with a sharply reversed transom. He had trouble keeping paint on the sharp bottom corner of the transom. It was constantly being chipped. I suggested he replace the bottom tip with a stainless copy, or put a small vertical bit of stainless transom there. It would look good.

When working with a heavy material, the trick is to minimize overhang, to maximize the WL length to weight ratio. A large sail plan also helps a lot.
Origami eliminates the chines in the bow and stern, eliminating the flow of water across hard points there. Midships chines are more parallel to water flow , altho one can always radius the chines there. Other wise you can make any hard chine hulk shape using origami methods. Mine sail well and have been well proven over decades.
I put a plexi window in the top of my built in tanks, so you can see the inside of the tank which is the hull skin , any time you lift a floor board. With removable tanks, you don't get to see the hull plate under them , until you have a problem and are forced to remove them, a problem you don't have with built in tanks. I make the inspection plate large enough to let me stick my head in, and see every inch of the inside of the tank and to reach every inch of the tank inside.
If I were rich I would consider aluminiumn cabin tops. I would never make the transition at the hull deck joint, which takes the entire twisting loads of a hull and is wet and a bad place for corrosion and deck leaks . As cabinsides on a sailboat are small and light especially with ports cut out I would make the transition to aluminiumn at the cabinside-cabin top point. I wouldn't consider cored fibreglass, as you would have to bolt your gear onto it , instead of welding.
There are no particular concerns about wiring. I suggest a plastic conduit along the hull- deck joint before foaming. Then you can pull whatever wiring you need thru any time.
I use big tabs, welded to the hull to bolt the bulkheads on. On the last boat I built, I tightened a piece of rigging wire, parallel to the centreline and waterline with a come along. Then I measured the spacing of bulkheads along this ,put a laser pointer on a square and used that along the wire to position the tabs for my bulkheads. It was extremely quick and simple.
I hang my interior off the bulkheads, on 2x3s fore and aft, nailed to the bulkheads.
More to come . The smoke from the leper colony ( Smoking section) is starting to blow into this pub .
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Last edited by Brent Swain; 08-27-2013 at 09:04 PM.
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