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  #731  
Old 08-27-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
To reduced maintenance ,start with clean steel . I get all my plate wheelabraded and primed with cold galvanizing primer, 87% zinc dry film by the steel supplier. My current boat was done that way and still has the 29 year old paint job, no problems. I gave mine 30 gallons of epoxy tar on a 31 ft boat, plus a coat of enamel every few years. Moitessier said the French navy puts ten coats of paint on before launching. The thicker the better. Most steel boat maintenance problems come from too thin a paint job, or painting over rust or mil scale. For many commercially built boats in BC, it comes from zero paint inside. Spat foam is not adequate protection for the inside of a steel boat. Three or more coats of epoxy tar inside before spray foaming is needed.
Out of interest, the paint coating on the hull of a certain 80-something-year old ship I was associated with a while back was almost half-an-inch thick at the end of her ocean-going life. All nice thin layers like the rings of a tree spelling out the various paint colours and undercoats over the decades.. It was fascinating to see.
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  #732  
Old 08-27-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Thank you Mark. We are after that "Wow! What is that?" effect.
Well Bob, you did that. I can't wait to see the final product, preferably under full sail.
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  #733  
Old 08-27-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Thanks Mark. I can't wait to sail the boat.

Andrew:
That book is like a time capsule to a day when things were simple and fun.

Brent:
Sorry you live near a leper colony.
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  #734  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
To reduced maintenance ,start with clean steel . I get all my plate wheelabraded and primed with cold galvanizing primer, 87% zinc dry film by the steel supplier. My current boat was done that way and still has the 29 year old paint job, no problems. I gave mine 30 gallons of epoxy tar on a 31 ft boat, plus a coat of enamel every few years. Moitessier said the French navy puts ten coats of paint on before launching. The thicker the better. Most steel boat maintenance problems come from too thin a paint job, or painting over rust or mil scale. For many commercially built boats in BC, it comes from zero paint inside. Spat foam is not adequate protection for the inside of a steel boat. Three or more coats of epoxy tar inside before spray foaming is needed.
Wasser makes a urethane tar which is just as good as epoxy tar, the same price, and much more forgiving in recoat times. They also make some good zinc primers.
Flat well painted surfaces rarely chip. Corners are the main source of paint chipping. Trimming all outside corners with stainless reduces maintenance by roughly 80%. That is why I put stainless cabinside handrails on the edge of the cabinside, instead of inboard. It also makes things a bit safer
To minimize maintenance, designers should simplify things as much as possible, eliminating corners and nooks and crannies, or do them in stainless where possible. I met a guy with a Waterline boat with a sharply reversed transom. He had trouble keeping paint on the sharp bottom corner of the transom. It was constantly being chipped. I suggested he replace the bottom tip with a stainless copy, or put a small vertical bit of stainless transom there. It would look good.

When working with a heavy material, the trick is to minimize overhang, to maximize the WL length to weight ratio. A large sail plan also helps a lot.
Origami eliminates the chines in the bow and stern, eliminating the flow of water across hard points there. Midships chines are more parallel to water flow , altho one can always radius the chines there. Other wise you can make any hard chine hulk shape using origami methods. Mine sail well and have been well proven over decades.
I put a plexi window in the top of my built in tanks, so you can see the inside of the tank which is the hull skin , any time you lift a floor board. With removable tanks, you don't get to see the hull plate under them , until you have a problem and are forced to remove them, a problem you don't have with built in tanks. I make the inspection plate large enough to let me stick my head in, and see every inch of the inside of the tank and to reach every inch of the tank inside.
If I were rich I would consider aluminiumn cabin tops. I would never make the transition at the hull deck joint, which takes the entire twisting loads of a hull and is wet and a bad place for corrosion and deck leaks . As cabinsides on a sailboat are small and light especially with ports cut out I would make the transition to aluminiumn at the cabinside-cabin top point. I wouldn't consider cored fibreglass, as you would have to bolt your gear onto it , instead of welding.
There are no particular concerns about wiring. I suggest a plastic conduit along the hull- deck joint before foaming. Then you can pull whatever wiring you need thru any time.
I use big tabs, welded to the hull to bolt the bulkheads on. On the last boat I built, I tightened a piece of rigging wire, parallel to the centreline and waterline with a come along. Then I measured the spacing of bulkheads along this ,put a laser pointer on a square and used that along the wire to position the tabs for my bulkheads. It was extremely quick and simple.
I hang my interior off the bulkheads, on 2x3s fore and aft, nailed to the bulkheads.
More to come . The smoke from the leper colony ( Smoking section) is starting to blow into this pub .
Brent, my man you are not sailing a steel boat, you are sailing a paint boat. Almost one gallon per linear foot? How thick is it?
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  #735  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Thank you Brent. That was informative. What do you do welding? Do you grind edges to45 degrees to pull a good puddle? What do you think about flame zincing? Is there advantages to using closed cell sheets or do you foam in place? What about fire and toxic fume threats? Do you use heat sinks welding? Do you tack and wander to decrease distortion?
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  #736  
Old 08-27-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by aeventyr60 View Post
I got lost at sea on one of Bob's boats. Best 14 years of my life.
That was damned irresponsible of you.
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  #737  
Old 08-28-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
The suggestion that anything which was never photographed "didn't happen" was the looniest thing I have ever seen posted. It deserved my entirely appropriate challenge .
No it wasn't and No it didn't.

Clearly it is rather difficult to now go and photograph and document the French Revolution.

IT IS NOT DIFFICULT for you however to produce some figures, some fact, some substance here to support your case. Dude even if you faked them it would of taken less energy than the hyperbole and conjecture that you continue to litter this thread with.

I like steel boats, I actually didn't mind your boats, obviously there are those that have built them, and cruise them, that's great. I actually enjoyed your initial contributions on here, but I am now seriously having the urge to ram BS designed boats on sight.

Take a hint Brent.
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  #738  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

"Yours break up , or get lost at sea without a trace"

I ask for documented proof of this statement and BS dissapears or tries to change the subject. He can dish it out but he can't back it up. He lies.
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  #739  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Brent is probably just not able to understand that it is clearly obvious that he is, and has been, lying about the whole boat grinding on a reef, being in a hull speed collision with a cargo vessel, never needing maintenance thing. I kind of feel sorry for him, because the guy has some skills, is funny as all get out to have a conversation with on here, but he just does not get it. Some of us tried to explain the whole thing to him about how his hulls, or anyone else's would suffer severe damage in the situations he described, but he was not having it. Personally I think he can probably do a pretty good job at building one of HIS boats, I think he would have extreme issues with building a Bob Perry, Roger Long, Bruce Roberts or any other designer's boat because in all honesty, I do not think he follows a set of drawn plans very closely. The math would hurt his head, the complicated hull design drawings would make him dizzy, and the labor with anything other than steel might be a bit of a challenge as well.

In truth he is like a lot of us, set in his ways, accustomed to the way he has been doing things, and not too eager to change. I know that I sometimes have issues with changing the way I do things, especially when the way I have been doing it has worked well for ME, but in my particular profession that government regulates changes almost daily, and those who do not study, and change their way of doing things get left behind. I think that Brent really could benefit from some time in Bob's offices studying with Bob and his group. He could learn the math and theory behind the designs, learn some aesthetics and interior layout techniques, learn how to look at a boat and actually see it, or develop his "eye" for the design, as some might put it. However, I think that after about ten minutes Bob might pound him over the head with a rubber mallet and toss him out the door, because Brent does not want to learn. Stubbornness is not an endearing trait when practiced to extremes, and Brent is an expert practitioner of stubbornness, and might also have a degree in prevarication as well.

So, as Brent trades shots with Bob, we get to learn about yacht design, and best of all it is free. The debate is often funny, the characters sometimes larger than life, and the claims on one side are just about comical, but in between the lines we get to learn from one who is a true master of design in all forms, and one who is actually a master in his own designs, though he makes us just about hate them with some of his claims. Brent, I would like to challenge you to become a better representative of your methods, not by more loudly proclaiming them to be just about indestructible, because they are not, but by actually giving some thought to the things you say, and not saying things that are fabrications, prevarications, or just plain outright lies, instead talk with us clearly and concisely about how you design and build the boats you build. You already know I think that your designs are slow, and not attractive, but I wonder why you do not attempt to design some that are more sleek, more attractive, and a bit faster. Please do not tell me that your boats will outrun racing boats, I know how to do the math, and your hull would have to have a sail that would sink it in order to make that kind of speed, so accept some help, and some constructive, although probably rough, criticism and improve your designs. You might find that being open to improve the design would net you more money, and you might also find that having more money is not as bad as you might think.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by mark2gmtrans View Post
So, as Brent trades shots with Bob, we get to learn about yacht design, and best of all it is free. The debate is often funny, the characters sometimes larger than life, and the claims on one side are just about comical, but in between the lines we get to learn from one who is a true master of design in all forms, and one who is actually a master in his own designs, though he makes us just about hate them with some of his claims. Brent, I would like to challenge you to become a better representative of your methods, not by more loudly proclaiming them to be just about indestructible, because they are not, but by actually giving some thought to the things you say
+1

Yup.
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