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  #781  
Old 08-30-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Come on Smack, the guy is sailing and it is easy to find pictures of his boats and its building on Internet. You have to put Brent Swain on Google and look for images. How difficult is that?

You can see some drawings here:

Brent Swain Origami boat drawings - Boat Design Forums

Regards

Paulo
Paulo, I've Googled plenty of BS. My point on asking for current photos is that I'm wanting to see if the current state of his boat matches his claims of how it's holding up with so little maintenance over 30 years. This should actually be something to be very proud of if he's right. Why on earth would you NOT want to illustrate something like that?
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  #782  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by Oregonian View Post
I suggest that you force Mr. Perry to give you the straight scoop for once, as the source of your ignorance rests squarely on his shoulders.
So that's why I did so poorly on my GRE??? Damn you Perry!!!!
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  #783  
Old 08-30-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Moses, you must lead your people out of Egypt!
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  #784  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by Oregonian View Post
When you are confronted by a person with more experience than yourself and that person’s experiences contradicts your theories, do you automatically call him a liar? Is that the Sailnet way?
Personally, I never call anyone a liar unless they are lying.
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  #785  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Hey Oregoni - is this quote from BS true?

Quote:
Steel boats are usually a lot lighter than Wetsnails, and many more traditional fibreglass boats. Few fully loaded offshore cruising boats are anywhere near their waterlines, anyway.
I have built about three dozen of them, and wouldn't consider going to sea in anything but a metal boat. One of the things which as made metal boats so expensive is the grossly outdated , imitation wooden boat building methods used to build most of them.
I have reduced the time it takes to build a 36 foot hull and deck, from Colvin's estimated 1,000 hours to under 100 hours, using origami boat building methods ( and I've written a book on the subject).
I have pulled together a 36 foot hull in two days.
My own 31 footer was launched a month after the steel arrived.
I once built a 36 in Winnipeg . In the three weeks I was there, I built the hull, decks, cabin, cockpit, wheelhouse, keels, rudder, skeg, engine mounts, tanks , handrails, hatches ,mooring bits , cleats, bow roller , mast fully detailed, solid lifelines, in effect all the steel work . The owner had hired a welder to weld on my time off , so by the time I had left, most of the metalwork was done.
When the metal work is done, you are much further along than you would ever be with a fibreglass hull and decks.
A friend, who has owned many fibreglass boats, tells me that there is far more work chasing down deck leaks on a fibreglass boat, than in maintaining a steel boat, which has most of the deck hardware welded down.
Welded down stainless deck hardware never moves or works loose. They don't leak.
Having single handed across the Pacific 9 times , given the things I have collided with in the middle of the night , I don't think I would still be here, had I been in a fibreglass boat.
In Jimmy Cornell's book "Modern Ocean Cruising" he interviews ten circumnavigators , 8 of whom said they would prefer a metal boat next time, and several who had already started their metal boats .
There is a huge mass of debris floating across the Pacific from the Japanese earthquake and tsunami. I wouldn't want to be out there in a non metal boat.
My current steel boat , built in 1984, was painted with 30 gallons of epoxy tar. My annual maintenance is around 1 or 2 hours a year, and costs under $50 a year. She has never been sandblasted, and has only been hauled out twice, in Tonga in 2000 and 2003.
As it is mainly outside corners which have problems with paint chipping, I have found that trimming all outside corners with stainless can reduce maintenance by up to 80%
Some complain about the cost of fitting out. I have dealt with this in my book. I give instructions to build a 540 GPD watermaker for under $1,000. Some say headsail furlers are expensive, so I have designed one which can be easily built for under $200. The sheet blocks in my book cost around $2 each and take about 20 minutes or less to build. The composting head , costing about $1200 to buy, can be built for under $50 . Ditto the Lavac type head. The engine driven welder costs under $50 to build. The windvane self steering, under $25. Anchor winch , under $50, bilge pump, under $20, etc etc.

I new Zealand a designer named Birsell designs a simple hard chine steel boat based on the " Deerfoot "concept. Most of their owners are enthusiastic about their boats .
Aluminium is a great material for cabins and wheelhouses, above the waterline, but corrosion problems, and problems getting a non corrosive antifouling would make me leery about aluminium hulls. They are also far more expensive, and aluminium welds are nowhere near as reliable as steel welds.
Alex Christie has made a DVD on the origami building process. He can be reached at achristie@shaw.ca
Last edited by Brent Swain; 06-03-2011 at 02:09 PM.
I don't think he likes your current boat. Now I can see why you want to get out of it and into a BS Design. Much lighter and faster.
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  #786  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Finally! I found those pics of the $2 blocks Brent was talking about:

Quote:
Make your own block and test it. It only takes 20 minutes and $2 worth of materials.

The cheeks of a sheet block can be easily jig sawed out of 3/16th aluminium scrap. Some use spacers which can be made out of pipe , on the becket end, to space them the same as the width of the sheave. I prefer to leave the two cheeks attached by a strip of 3/4 inch wide aluminium, then bend it 180 degrees to make the becket. These cheeks should be sanded very smooth and well rounded to eliminate chafe.
Then it' s simply a matter of running a 3/8th ss bolt thru the sheave to make up the block.
You can make up sheaves by running a hole saw thru a sheet of plastic , such as a cutting board. Micarta, salvaged from electrical panels makes even better sheaves which will last several lifetimes. Black plastic is far more UV resistance , if you can find it.
After hole sawing it out, you put a carriage bolt thru it and put it in a drill chuck. Then you use a vise and machine the groove in it , using the drill like a lathe.
You can use a spacer to make a double block, or put different sized sheaves in line, like the yachtie blocks.
While I think bearings are a gimmick , if you insist , you can make the hole in the sheave a half inch wider than the bolt, then stack bits of 1/4 inch rod , made out of any material you like, around the pin and viola, roller bearings.
I have made a single block this way, using only hand tools in 20 minutes, a far stronger and more reliable block than most of the super expensive "Yachtie " blocks people get conned out of large sums of money for. A billionaire can't buy a better block for any amount of money. It takes less time to build one than it takes to travel to the ship swindler and buy a block .
Yet another of many examples of how building your own produces a far better product than the cheque book delivers.
Last edited by Brent Swain; 10-17-2011 at 04:35 PM.




I assume these are from his own boat - which starts to give some small indication of its condition. I guess we all have different measures of "perfection".
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  #787  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregonian View Post
As I said, “I have sailed all the other boats mentioned” (not the Brent Swain). That is why I chose to list them. I am a delivery skipper and brokerage “on call” skipper. I sail a lot of boats.
When you are confronted by a person with more experience than yourself and that person’s experiences contradicts your theories, do you automatically call him a liar? Is that the Sailnet way?
The first 10 pages of this thread answered the OP’s questions. A sticking point early on concerned the “speed” of a steel boat. The answer is that hull material of a heavy displacement boat is inconsequential to the sailing performance of that boat. It matters little if the hull is carbon composite or plate steel. The proper shape for that displacement is what is important.
The 4 other boats mentioned by me fall into the general category of “average”. They are NOT “4 of the best blue water boats in the world” as stated by Mark2gmstrans. The Brent Swain design, as frequently shown, is just an adaptation of a purpose built boat. It is steel and can easily be adapted to a different purpose. I would choose a slightly different adaptation, but still with a full keel, and have a boat that, YES, will sail equal to or better than all the other boats mentioned.
If any of you are having trouble understanding this, as Mark2gmstrans is, I suggest that you force Mr. Perry to give you the straight scoop for once, as the source of your ignorance rests squarely on his shoulders.
Oregonian,

First Bob is not my daddy, and I am not his, so we do not force one another to do anything at all. If I have any ignorance on anything the weight of it rest squarely on MY OWN shoulders, not Bob's, your's, or anyone else's. When I read your post I understood it to mean that you were saying you were sailing a BS 31 and outperforming all of the other boats there in your list, which by the way are far better designs in every aspect and, in my opinion, would and should perform better as blue water cruisers than the BS 31, for many reasons. The first being that those are full keel or modified fin keel boats, and the BS 31 as I have seen the designs, is a twin keel boat, seems to have the hull of an Easter egg with fairy wings, and is not going to be as good a sailor as the others. None of those boats are racers, and that is not the issue here, the issue is going to be just how sea kindly are they going to be? How well will they point, and how easily will they handle rough weather. The Westsail has been mentioned here, we know those are boats that really have a proven track record of handling storms, very well, and you and I both know they also are not racers. I would be willing to bet that the Westsail would be faster than a BS boat with twin keels of the same length, partly because the BS is going to be fatter, heavier, and have other handicaps. It has been said many times here, by sooooo many people, that wetted area makes a big difference, yet the proponents of BS are ALL seeming to want to ignore it.

You seem to be a knowledgeable skipper, a good sailor (from what I hear) and for some reason you want us to ignore the fact that the BS boats are heavier and slower by design. I won't even go into the structural issues with his so called frameless design, I know that there have been MANY far more qualified people than myself tell him that the lack of frames is not a good thing structurally. Using the top of a fuel tank as a critical structural member is also not good design and safety practice. So while you believe that I am somehow a puppet of Bob's, I am not. I have seen a lot of steel boats that looked great, had some improvements done on the designs, and were originally sort of BS designs but the finished product was most definitely not a BS design at all, once someone takes the original BS design and gets rid of the problems they can become a good design. You still are not going to build it in three weeks unless you have a large shop, an experienced team, and a lot of skill. Brent can blow smoke up people's butts all he wants, but whilst doing it he might want to think about where his lips are...

I would not work with Brent to build a boat because sooner or later I would get tired of his incessant condemnation of everything else. I think you might be able to work with him, you guys might be able to get along, because I think he would be preaching to the choir with you. I know that there are a lot of designers and builders out there, and I doubt any of them, other than Brent, will spend that much time putting down every other single method of construction, every single other designer, and everyone who does not love their designs. Brent does this and a lot more, and all over the internets, and so I like to tweak him once in awhile, and it entertains me, and I imagine one or two others, to read his replies. I can just see the poor guy, spittle flying out of his mouth as he shouts at the monitor, typing furiously, all the while his voice is getting higher in pitch as he begins yet another tale of how a "friend of mine" got into woe and almost certain death due to his boat made of inferior non-BS design methods and materials, and now has been converted to the faithful following of BS boats. He will once again tell us the tale of the boat which was humping the reef, for an ever increasing number of hours and days, I think we are up to 16 days and 10 foot swells, and being dragged 200 yards in and 200 out, and how it came through without a scratch. My first question would be "how freaking much draft did that boat have if ten foot swells would not allow it to sail free from the Fantasy Island Reef?".

So, while you may not like it, I still would like to know, just what kind of boat was it you said you were sailing past all of those others on?
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

As has become obvious, he is happy with a workboat level of finish.

Those blocks COULD be spiffed up a lot - use S/S instead of Al. Nice fasteners, acorn nuts & so forth. Sanding the cheeks smooth and then polishing them up bright - they wouldn't look bad at all.

Definitely be stronger than the stamped tinfoil most of the stock stuff is comprised of.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Finally! I found those pics of the $2 blocks Brent was talking about:







I assume these are from his own boat - which starts to give some small indication of its condition. I guess we all have different measures of "perfection".
Nah, Smackers, that cannot be Brent's boat, there is not nearly 30 coats of pain on it...

I think there are only maybe 15 or 20, but it is the deck, I think, who can tell from the angles. It sure does look like $50.00 bucks a year does not go far in the maintenance world even on a BS boat.

One thing I would have to say, the blocks look heavy duty enough to haul the boat up with.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote from Mark2gmtrans: "So, while you may not like it, I still would like to know, just what kind of boat was it you said you were sailing past all of those others on"

I was on a Westsail 32 and had no trouble passing the Valiant 32, Tashiba 31, baba 30, or Islander 28. I could have added the Valiant 40 to that list, but did not out of respect for Mr. Perry. The Westsail is a much better sea boat than any of those other 4 boats . The Tashiba is the closest to it's stern.

This thread is not about Westsails and they never needed to be mentioned. It is also not about all the BS that proliferates here. Bob's Sliver, that is.
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