Pros and cons of steel sailboats - Page 80 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree1723Likes
Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #791  
Old 08-30-2013
mark2gmtrans's Avatar
sailing soon
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Texas
Posts: 813
Thanks: 2
Thanked 30 Times in 30 Posts
Rep Power: 2
mark2gmtrans is on a distinguished road
Send a message via Yahoo to mark2gmtrans
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregonian View Post
Quote from Mark2gmtrans: "So, while you may not like it, I still would like to know, just what kind of boat was it you said you were sailing past all of those others on"

I was on a Westsail 32 and had no trouble passing the Valiant 32, Tashiba 31, baba 30, or Islander 28. I could have added the Valiant 40 to that list, but did not out of respect for Mr. Perry. The Westsail is a much better sea boat than any of those other 4 boats . The Tashiba is the closest to it's stern.

This thread is not about Westsails and they never needed to be mentioned. It is also not about all the BS that proliferates here. Bob's Sliver, that is.
Then why is it that it seemed to be that you were saying you were sailing a BS 31 when all of that passing went on?

That is what I got from the post, and when it was written that is what it looked like to some others as well. I personally like the westsail, it may not be a racer, but it certainly is a proven vessel in severe weather. I think you may have posted meaning that you were on a westsail, but it read as if you were saying you were on a BS 31.

I also know that you have a reputation as being very capable in handling your boat, and that makes a huge difference, no matter what the boat may be. If I am sailing against someone who is on the same type of boat I am on, but the other person is just better at handling the boat than I am, I should not be surprised when that person is better in a "race" than I am, same thing goes the other way. When I am driving a semi, and someone who has not been driving nearly as long as I have does something with less skill than I do it, I do not blame the truck, I know the fault lies with the driver. I have been sailing for a long time if you want to count the years since I first started, but if you want to count the actual hours per year on a sailboat then I am still not inexperienced, but I am certainly not in the same class as someone who delivers boats for a living. I would not race against someone in that class expecting to win, unless that person just messed up.

You probably should go back and look at the original post which I was quoting, and see how it looks to you.
__________________
It is good to learn from your mistakes, but much better to learn from the mistakes of others...
Quick reply to this message
  #792  
Old 08-30-2013
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,793
Thanks: 1
Thanked 81 Times in 77 Posts
Rep Power: 4
bobperry will become famous soon enough
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Oregon:
Here you go again:
Don't thank me. You deserve it.

So, you are going to tell me you can outsail a well sailed Valiant 40 in a well sailed Westsail 32. Read slowly: "well sailed".
I think your credibility just took a dip.

And for the record, you do not owe me any respect so drop the BS and talk like a man. I have no need or desire for your respect. If what I do has an effect on your life then that's your problem. What you do has no effect at all on my life. Zero.

Since you, Oregon, brought it up and I know it bothers you to know end to see someone enjoy doing what you can only dream of doing, I went down to the Sliver Project this morning to check the bootstripe. Scott, one of the owners of CSR, was the one who first spotted the kinks in the boot. Everyone else said the stripe was fine, even the owner of the SLIVER. But, I had my doubts, Scott should know. So I thought I'd check it out myself. Scott was correct. There was some weird shite going on in both ends. We re-taped the ends of the stripe by eye, ignoring the dimensions. Now it looks very good.

We had three lines:
top of the bottom paint
bottom of the bootstripe
top of the boot stripe

Clearly while the top of the bottom paint was a straight line the other two lines were not. Not sure why. Don't care now it's fixed. I know it's odd to get focused on such a small detail but this boat is so close to perfect at this stage that I want every detail to be right. Besides while I was in Seattle I went to Central Market and bought a leg of lamb. An all round good trip.

Love the photos of BS's details.
Attached Thumbnails
Pros and cons of steel sailboats-crockpot.jpg  
__________________
Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Quick reply to this message
  #793  
Old 08-30-2013
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 2,373
Thanks: 19
Thanked 33 Times in 32 Posts
Rep Power: 0
Brent Swain is on a distinguished road
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Paulo:
Many thanks for posting the link to BS's drawings. They are what I expected.
They show little ctaftmanship in design.
My sail plans are abit more detailed. You can judge the difference for yourself.
Bob. Ones ability to draw pretty pictures of boats has nothing to do with his experience, or total lack of hands on boat building experience ,or knowledge ,or hands on cruising experience. There are plenty of people who know absolutely nothing about boats, who can draw pretty pictures, and people who don't have an innovative, nor practical , experience based bone in their body, who can still draw pretty pictures of boats.
My clients prefer practical building and cruising experience over picture drawing ctaftmanship, as you so eloquently put it.
You say you have ctaftmanship?

Don't drink while posting.
Quick reply to this message
  #794  
Old 08-30-2013
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 2,373
Thanks: 19
Thanked 33 Times in 32 Posts
Rep Power: 0
Brent Swain is on a distinguished road
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Naa. Those origamiboats pics will be ancient and, as usual, very misleading in regards to what you're claiming about how perfect your boat is...today. And I know you don't want to ever mislead people, Brent. Heh-heh.

That's cool. I didn't think you'd cough up any proof. It's always easier to just make stuff up from the "cruising grounds".

Oh look, Bob's presented yet more photos of actual boats he's designed for actual people! Ones that are actually being built - and actually sailed! I'm not sure you're qualified to carry his evidentiary jock-strap, Brent!
What do you find so difficult about looking up the photos section of the origamiboats site. If you have a computer problem, get a ten year old to show you how. Their brains are wired for computers, from a very early age.
My boat looks the same as it did in the photos there. They all do.
Quick reply to this message
  #795  
Old 08-30-2013
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,793
Thanks: 1
Thanked 81 Times in 77 Posts
Rep Power: 4
bobperry will become famous soon enough
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Brent:
sorry about the typo. Truth is I can't type worth a damn, especially first thing, pre-coffee in the morning. But I wanted to get a post in before I went fishing. No, I do not admire your drawings.

No question that you can build boats. They are not boats that appeal to me but as I have said over and over and over, they do appeal to some people and you should be very happy that they do. I'm glad you have a niche with home builders.

My designs are well accepted by a broad range of sailors and for that I am happy. I pride myself on a well crafted design just like you pride yourself on your craftsmanship with steel. like the details I see on the pics of your boat. Nice. You can work at diminishing what I do all you like but you can't change the reality of what I have done. and am doing everyday. All your snivelling won't undo what I have accomplished.
__________________
Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Quick reply to this message
  #796  
Old 08-30-2013
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 2,373
Thanks: 19
Thanked 33 Times in 32 Posts
Rep Power: 0
Brent Swain is on a distinguished road
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

With a heavy material like steel, it is important to not duplicate parts making some irrelevant dead weight. I have seen some put a large number of gussets along the hull deck joint on a boat with a trunk cabin, to keep the side decks up; needless weight, time and money . The cabinside is an immensely strong longitudinal girder on edge; structurally. Support it at any two points, and the middle is not going to sag down. Some designs, such as the Spray, and a steel version of a Tahiti ketch, have massive amounts of heavy , redundant framing and longitudinals, supporting thin hull plate. You are far more likely to hole a boat with thin plate over heavy framing than you are to hole thick hull plate over far less framing. When Sea Scene hit a huge log in Johnston Strait , the hull simply sprang back, leaving only scuffed paint as the only damage. Had she been lighter plate over rigid frames, she would have had a severe dent in her hull at that point. I have seen many boats with 1/8th hull plate which were write offs, due to internal corrosion ( due to zero paint inside) which could have been saved, had the plate been 3/16th plate. Saw two Foulkes boats with that problem in the last couple of weeks.

Likewise, one must pay attention to what existing parts do, structurally. The decks are an immensely strong longitudinal, fully welded steel bulkhead, structurally, as is the water tank top on the centreline. The chines and centreline are the structural equivalent of longitudinal, fully welded bulkheads. I have seen people fret about the distance between frames, when the distance between immensely strong, longitudinal structural members, such as chines ,centreline , decks, etc., are very short, something some appear blind to. An inability of some designers to see stresses in three dimensions makes them a poor choice to design a steel boat.
The longitudinal curves of a sailboats hull plates, supported by chines , decks, centerline ,longitudinals etc., constitute structural strength far greater than any given by transverse frames. Curves and longitudinals have the added advantage of not being point loads, far less likely to cause a tear in the hull plate, in the event of a frontal impact with a sharp object

Last edited by Brent Swain; 08-30-2013 at 08:39 PM.
Quick reply to this message
  #797  
Old 08-30-2013
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,793
Thanks: 1
Thanked 81 Times in 77 Posts
Rep Power: 4
bobperry will become famous soon enough
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Thanks Brent. That was interesting and makes sense.
__________________
Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Quick reply to this message
  #798  
Old 08-30-2013
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 2,373
Thanks: 19
Thanked 33 Times in 32 Posts
Rep Power: 0
Brent Swain is on a distinguished road
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Brent:
sorry about the typo. Truth is I can't type worth a damn, especially first thing, pre-coffee in the morning. But I wanted to get a post in before I went fishing. No, I do not admire your drawings.

No question that you can build boats. They are not boats that appeal to me but as I have said over and over and over, they do appeal to some people and you should be very happy that they do. I'm glad you have a niche with home builders.

My designs are well accepted by a broad range of sailors and for that I am happy. I pride myself on a well crafted design just like you pride yourself on your craftsmanship with steel. like the details I see on the pics of your boat. Nice. You can work at diminishing what I do all you like but you can't change the reality of what I have done. and am doing everyday. All your snivelling won't undo what I have accomplished.

Nor will your sniveling undo what I have accomplished.
Why are we only dyslexic when typing?
Dyslexics of the world, untie!
Quick reply to this message
  #799  
Old 08-30-2013
SloopJonB's Avatar
Senior Moment Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: West Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 10,930
Thanks: 58
Thanked 56 Times in 53 Posts
Rep Power: 4
SloopJonB will become famous soon enough
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
With a heavy material like steel, it is important to not duplicate parts making some irrelevant dead weight. I have seen some put a large number of gussets along the hull deck joint on a boat with a trunk cabin, to keep the side decks up; needless weight, time and money . The cabinside is an immensely strong longitudinal girder on edge; structurally. Support it at any two points, and the middle is not going to sag down. Some designs, such as the Spray, and a steel version of a Tahiti ketch, have massive amounts of heavy , redundant framing and longitudinals, supporting thin hull plate. You are far more likely to hole a boat with thin plate over heavy framing than you are to hole thick hull plate over far less framing. When Sea Scene hit a huge log in Johnston Strait , the hull simply sprang back, leaving only scuffed paint as the only damage. Had she been lighter plate over rigid frames, she would have had a severe dent in her hull at that point. I have seen many boats with 1/8th hull plate which were write offs, due to internal corrosion ( due to zero paint inside) which could have been saved, had the plate been 3/16th plate. Saw two Foulkes boats with that problem in the last couple of weeks.

Likewise, one must pay attention to what existing parts do, structurally. The decks are an immensely strong longitudinal, fully welded steel bulkhead, structurally, as is the water tank top on the centreline. The chines and centreline are the structural equivalent of longitudinal, fully welded bulkheads. I have seen people fret about the distance between frames, when the distance between immensely strong, longitudinal structural members, such as chines ,centreline , decks, etc., are very short, something some appear blind to. An inability of some designers to see stresses in three dimensions makes them a poor choice to design a steel boat.
The longitudinal curves of a sailboats hull plates, supported by chines , decks, centerline ,longitudinals etc., constitute structural strength far greater than any given by transverse frames. Curves and longitudinals have the added advantage of not being point loads, far less likely to cause a tear in the hull plate, in the event of a frontal impact with a sharp object
One word covers all that - Monocoque.

The Gougeons did the same thing with thick skinned, unframed laminated wood.
Brent Swain likes this.
__________________
I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken and opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses, deeply suspicious of all those who have "found the answer" and on my bad days, downright rude.
Quick reply to this message
  #800  
Old 08-30-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: new england
Posts: 1,862
Thanks: 34
Thanked 35 Times in 32 Posts
Rep Power: 3
outbound is on a distinguished road
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Would seem this line of thinking would also apply to other materials not just steel. Even a glass boat when hit in a manner that the force was oblique to the plane of the hull would be stronger. It would be weakest if struck perpendicular to the hull. Increased curvature would also decrease likelihood of "oilcanning". Would think this improvement would be more likely to occur in a fully developed hull with compound curves than a chined hull or hull with simple curves. Would think having a fine bow would likely also increase strength in context of impact . Speaks well for the Sliver.
Still remember earlier post about hitting the corner of a container at hull speed. That remains my nightmare so think having a forward collusion bulkhead makes sense.
__________________
s/v Hippocampus
Outbound 46
Quick reply to this message
Closed Thread

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hunter 36 Pros and Cons? turfguy Hunter 15 08-25-2014 06:08 PM
C & C 24 pros and cons chuckg Boat Review and Purchase Forum 11 04-06-2012 01:45 AM
Pros and Cons of Catalina 350?? turfguy C350 6 10-16-2009 06:17 PM
Watermakers—Pros and Cons Tom Wood Cruising Articles 0 06-11-2002 09:00 PM
Steel Hulls—Pros and Cons Sue & Larry Buying a Boat Articles 0 09-12-2001 09:00 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:14 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.