Pros and cons of steel sailboats - Page 91 - SailNet Community
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post #901 of 5317 Old 09-05-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Heh-heh. I love this place.


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post #902 of 5317 Old 09-05-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Brent- I hope to be voyaging soon. Seriously looked at wood/epoxy,Fe,Al,grp,and exotics. Took years of research before making final decision. Listened to others experiences and chatted up as many people as I could. Knew I wasn't going to do high latitude sailing (would choose Al in that case). Issue you face is until you accept the performance penalty your designs impose and speak honestly about this you will continue to have a limited audience. Please post PHRF or sailing polars or attested ships logs or something so folks can make informed decisions. I believe below approximately 50ft. the penalty is too high for steel. above that very reasonable performance can be achieved. Paulo has stated he thinks I pay too high a penalty given I opted for a solid glass hull. I'm very happy with my decision. Some folks may be very happy in steel below 50 ft. but please generate some facts so they can make an informed decision.

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post #903 of 5317 Old 09-05-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

P.s. ? Do your boats have stand pipes? Sea chests ? Is the infill all non flammable? Brent a fire on a boat is everyone's worse nightmare. Even those in steel. Marelon melts.

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post #904 of 5317 Old 09-06-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by WildHorses View Post
Hi - Wild Horses here. We were indeed at Jedediah at about that time, and anchored/stern tied in Deep Bay for lunch and a swim before heading out. We'd been in White Rock Bay the previous couple of nights. No grounding, no touching, no bumping. No nothing but fun. Sorry to cause such a stir!
Very glad to hear it.. the apologies are mine...

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post #905 of 5317 Old 09-06-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Faster:
I'm glad I have someone up in BC checking on my boats. You are now officially on the payroll.

Pay is low. Dinner and fine drinks at my shack will be your reward when you get down here. I hope to see you soon.
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post #906 of 5317 Old 09-06-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Brent,

Just curious about the Origami method. What exactly is the advantage of that method over first building a "frame" with ribs and stringers, and then applying the outer metal plating on that frame? I ask that question because I watched a series of videos of a couple building a large Origami style boat. It definitely wasn't easy and they struggled to get large plates (i.e. each side of boat) bent and twisted into the correct shape. Working with such large plates is hard and really dangerous without special rigging and know how. Basically, you are trying to force two plates (each side) to take the same shape (opposite hand of course) by applying pushing/pulling forces at various points. To my inexperienced (never done it, don't ever intend to do it) eye, this is a lot more difficult than working first with building a frame to dictate the hull shape and curves, and then applying/welding smaller pieces of plating to get the final hull. Those smaller pieces would seem to be easier to work with for a novice or person with limited tools/facilities, as opposed to welding up two large plates (sides) and then trying to bend and twist them into place.
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post #907 of 5317 Old 09-06-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

320:

I have been wondering the same thing for some time. I don't like the idea that I have minimal control of the shape in the ends of the boat. I would be concerned that the boat was symetyrical. I like working with frames so I can be certain the shape achieved is the shape I want and not a product of a geometric method.

Another question for Brent:
Is there a size where the origami method becomes impractical?

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post #908 of 5317 Old 09-06-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats







While this origami thing may be unique in sailboats ?

Anybody who forms sheet-metal or even REALLY THICK METAL knows how to layout most any complex shape in a lay-flat so it can be cut and formed efficiently
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post #909 of 5317 Old 09-06-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Brent- I hope to be voyaging soon. Seriously looked at wood/epoxy,Fe,Al,grp,and exotics. Took years of research before making final decision. Listened to others experiences and chatted up as many people as I could. Knew I wasn't going to do high latitude sailing (would choose Al in that case). Issue you face is until you accept the performance penalty your designs impose and speak honestly about this you will continue to have a limited audience. Please post PHRF or sailing polars or attested ships logs or something so folks can make informed decisions. I believe below approximately 50ft. the penalty is too high for steel. above that very reasonable performance can be achieved. Paulo has stated he thinks I pay too high a penalty given I opted for a solid glass hull. I'm very happy with my decision. Some folks may be very happy in steel below 50 ft. but please generate some facts so they can make an informed decision.
Do a search under Silas Crosby the first brentboat to round Cape Horn, now cruising SE Alaska. He gives his passage times, which are about average for most plastic cruising boats in the 36 ft size range. Paul Wilson gives his brentboat speeds on the origamiboats site. There he mentions a Bruce Bingham designed Fantasia leaving Fanning four days before him. Paul said he quickly caught up with and passed the Fantasia. Read Moitessier's book "The Long Way " which blows the myth that a 40 ft steel boat is slow. There are many small steel cruisers out cruising, down to 30 feet or less, which make the same passage times as most plastic boats in that size range. You will mete a lot of them when you head out cruising. Ask them about their passage times. Most wouldn't want to be in anything but steel . Few would change to plastic. The huge weight of gear and personal effects most cruisers take, makes the hull material weight irrelevant. There are plenty of plastic boats in the same weight range, or much heavier than my boats. ( Westsails ,Aleuelas, Ingrids, Hereshcoffs, Cape George cutters, etc., etc.)
The myth that steel is impractical for boats under 50 feet is entirely made up by those trying to sell you plastic. Everyone doing a good passage time in a steel boat under 50 feet, puts a lie to this myth, every time they do.
You may eventually want a steel boat. According to Jimmy Cornell's book "Modern Ocean Cruising" most do, once they get a bit more long term ocean cruising experience.

Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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While this origami thing may be unique in sailboats ?

Anybody who forms sheet-metal or even REALLY THICK METAL knows how to layout most any complex shape in a lay-flat so it can be cut and formed efficiently
Origami has been standard sheet metal technique for as long as sheet material has been around. Women say 'Exactly like dress making. ' Absolutely!
The problem was, when they started making boats out of steel, they didn't ask the sheet metal workers , who understood the material, they asked the wooden boat builders, who were only used to a material which only had strength in one direction, along the grain ! So, instead of design which took advantage of the omnidirectional strength of steel, and the sizes and shapes available, we got imitation wooden boat building, designed for a material which was only available in planks. This mistake was cast in the dogma of traditionalism for far too long. Origami boat building is one of the first breaks out of this traditionalist dogma, along with Van de Stadts methods.

Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"
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