Pros and cons of steel sailboats - Page 92 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree1636Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #911  
Old 09-06-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 2,311
Thanks: 19
Thanked 31 Times in 30 Posts
Rep Power: 3
Brent Swain is on a distinguished road
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Another advantage of steel is, it lets you use the best ,strongest, cheapest , and most reliable thru hulls possible, stainless type 316 pipe nipples, welded in . This gives you the added advantage of , they don't have to be at 90 degrees to the hull , saving considerable space inside. I have been using such thru hulls for 37 years, with no problems of any kind.
Another advantage of steel is it's fire resistance. If you get a fire inside, and seal the boat airtight , there is not enough oxygen to enable the fire to last long enough to do significant damage.
__________________
Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #912  
Old 09-06-2013
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,552
Thanks: 1
Thanked 72 Times in 68 Posts
Rep Power: 4
bobperry will become famous soon enough
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Tom:
You take me back to mechanical drawing classes. I can't tell you how many of those devoped surfaces I drafted. I was damn good at it too. The geometry determines that shape. I get it.

Brent: Do you know what "plastic" is?
Brent: Do you know what fiberglass is?
Brent do you know what "composite" is?

You are obsessed with called grp boats "plastic". Go ahead and be a name caller if that's the best you can do. And I am convinced that it is. Everytime I mention Brent Swain and this thread to a sailor I know that say, "Who? Never heard of him."

Why keep saying "plastic" when it is not an accurate term. It's just a way you have of putting down anything that is not yours. You are so pathetically transparent. My clients wouldn't be caught dead in one of your boats. They are boats they are not "yachts" by any standard.

As for performance. We have your word that your 34'ers past the racing fleet in San Diego. What more proof could we want. Here you go. It's Friday night and I think this will be the very first awards you get tonight.
Attached Thumbnails
Pros and cons of steel sailboats-crockpot.jpg  
__________________
Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Bob's Blog ....


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #913  
Old 09-06-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 2,311
Thanks: 19
Thanked 31 Times in 30 Posts
Rep Power: 3
Brent Swain is on a distinguished road
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
320:

I have been wondering the same thing for some time. I don't like the idea that I have minimal control of the shape in the ends of the boat. I would be concerned that the boat was symetyrical. I like working with frames so I can be certain the shape achieved is the shape I want and not a product of a geometric method.

Another question for Brent:
Is there a size where the origami method becomes impractical?
The shape is controlled completely by the shape of the edges. If they are identical ,it is geometrically impossible for them to be anything but identical. The edges are your control. Just as, if you join six plates together ,and they are all square, joined at the corners, it is geometrically impossible for the result to be anything but square. The same rule applies to more complex shapes.
A friend built a 60 footer using origami methods. That is what I would consider the upper limit. if you want more stiffeners in, you can always add them afterwards, a much simpler job.
__________________
Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #914  
Old 09-06-2013
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 12,955
Thanks: 80
Thanked 72 Times in 66 Posts
Rep Power: 8
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Bob,

I'm sorry but obviously you have some facts wrong. From another forum...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
With the number of big logs around , BC plastic boat cruisers are afraid to sail at night. That is why steel boats are so popular around here, especially mine.
Surely you and your sailing friends are nowhere near the treacherous northwestern coast of our fair continent. Otherwise, you would have ALL heard of him and been frantically building your own BrentYachts to survive the deadhead onslaught.
oldfurr likes this.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #915  
Old 09-06-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 2,311
Thanks: 19
Thanked 31 Times in 30 Posts
Rep Power: 3
Brent Swain is on a distinguished road
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
P.s. ? Do your boats have stand pipes? Sea chests ? Is the infill all non flammable? Brent a fire on a boat is everyone's worse nightmare. Even those in steel. Marelon melts.
I don't use plastic thru hulls, because they have no advantage over welded in stainless, are flimsy , and yes they do melt. I love standpipes, along with stainless ball valves. The only open thru hull I have on my boat, below the waterline, is the sink drain, just below the waterline, where it can be plugged from outside any time. A friend with a Colvin Saugeen witch had an oil stove overflow ,when he was not aboard . It burned a 2 ft square over the stove, then went out, due to lack of oxygen, despite there being plenty of diesel , wood and foam around . There was not even enough to burn thru the wooden hatches and plastic vents. My brother ,a lifetime Campbell River firefighter, said he has seen the same happen in big department stores. It takes a lot of oxygen , usually an outside source, to keep a fire going.
__________________
Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #916  
Old 09-06-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 583
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 6
NCC320 is on a distinguished road
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCC320 View Post
Brent,

Just curious about the Origami method. What exactly is the advantage of that method over first building a "frame" with ribs and stringers, and then applying the outer metal plating on that frame? I ask that question because I watched a series of videos of a couple building a large Origami style boat. It definitely wasn't easy and they struggled to get large plates (i.e. each side of boat) bent and twisted into the correct shape. Working with such large plates is hard and really dangerous without special rigging and know how. Basically, you are trying to force two plates (each side) to take the same shape (opposite hand of course) by applying pushing/pulling forces at various points. To my inexperienced (never done it, don't ever intend to do it) eye, this is a lot more difficult than working first with building a frame to dictate the hull shape and curves, and then applying/welding smaller pieces of plating to get the final hull. Those smaller pieces would seem to be easier to work with for a novice or person with limited tools/facilities, as opposed to welding up two large plates (sides) and then trying to bend and twist them into place.
Brent,

You didn't exactly answer the question regarding Origami vs. rib and stringer frame with over plating. You say it's "new way" vs. "old way". There are many things that a proper metal fabricating shop can do with bending and shaping plate. But most of your boats seem to be one off's by "Do it yourself" builders with limited skills, equipment, etc. So still, why isn't the frame method still better than Origami? What are the disadvantages of frame method vs. Origami, or conversely, what does Origami offer over frame method? Once you weld up the material, the steel is more of less continuous plate by either method.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #917  
Old 09-06-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 2,311
Thanks: 19
Thanked 31 Times in 30 Posts
Rep Power: 3
Brent Swain is on a distinguished road
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Tom:
You take me back to mechanical drawing classes. I can't tell you how many of those devoped surfaces I drafted. I was damn good at it too. The geometry determines that shape. I get it.

Brent: Do you know what "plastic" is?
Brent: Do you know what fiberglass is?
Brent do you know what "composite" is?

You are obsessed with called grp boats "plastic". Go ahead and be a name caller if that's the best you can do. And I am convinced that it is. Everytime I mention Brent Swain and this thread to a sailor I know that say, "Who? Never heard of him."

Why keep saying "plastic" when it is not an accurate term. It's just a way you have of putting down anything that is not yours. You are so pathetically transparent. My clients wouldn't be caught dead in one of your boats. They are boats they are not "yachts" by any standard.

As for performance. We have your word that your 34'ers past the racing fleet in San Diego. What more proof could we want. Here you go. It's Friday night and I think this will be the very first awards you get tonight.
I have been told that Websters dictionary defines "plastic "as that which can be easily molded.
No Bob, I don't have a 34 foot design.
I have no interest in impressing those who seek "decorative flimsiness" as the definition of a boat's quality. My clients have more experience than that ,and , or , are more practical.
__________________
Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #918  
Old 09-06-2013
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,552
Thanks: 1
Thanked 72 Times in 68 Posts
Rep Power: 4
bobperry will become famous soon enough
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

"BC plastic boat cruisers are afraid to sail at night. "

Brent, do you really believe this?
You do need to get out more.

Poor fragile little Westsail, can't sail at night?

Ok 32'er. Who cares, it was totally BS statement. I can dig up your comments if I have to. But they were really silly and a clear case of your perspective on reality.

Hey, lets have some fun:
Brent how about posting one of your hull lines drawings.
I'll show you mine if you shw me yours.
I'd love to see how you actually control the design of those shapes.
Make it quick though. I think I'll go fishing soon. Coho are running.
__________________
Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Bob's Blog ....


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by bobperry; 09-06-2013 at 08:03 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #919  
Old 09-06-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 2,311
Thanks: 19
Thanked 31 Times in 30 Posts
Rep Power: 3
Brent Swain is on a distinguished road
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCC320 View Post
Brent,

You didn't exactly answer the question regarding Origami vs. rib and stringer frame with over plating. You say it's "new way" vs. "old way". There are many things that a proper metal fabricating shop can do with bending and shaping plate. But most of your boats seem to be one off's by "Do it yourself" builders with limited skills, equipment, etc. So still, why isn't the frame method still better than Origami? What are the disadvantages of frame method vs. Origami, or conversely, what does Origami offer over frame method? Once you weld up the material, the steel is more of less continuous plate by either method.
Origami drastically reduces the number of meters of seams you have it cut, fit , grind and weld. You would have to look at my book, Alex's video, or the step by step building photos on the origamiboats site, to see how we eliminated the need for lifting , making large plates much easier and quicker to use than a lot of small plates, or eliminated the need for bending equipment, or a well equipped shop.
I pulled Dale Deforest's hull," Exit" together in two days . The steel arrived Thursday afternoon, and by 11 pm Friday, the hull was together, the transom in, and the stringers and all the bulwark caps on. You couldn't get out of the starting gate ,using a fully framed method, in that time. Sure a first timer would take longer ,but a lot less time than using the fully framed method.
When a sheet of steel comes form the supplier, it is fair. The less you have to do to it, the fairer it will remain.
Sometimes we can only get 20 ft sheets, which adds to the time, and takes careful techniques to get the seam fair . It would be a huge amount of work to do that over many seams, with far less fair results, and a lot of filler required.
__________________
Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"

Last edited by Brent Swain; 09-07-2013 at 06:49 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #920  
Old 09-06-2013
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,552
Thanks: 1
Thanked 72 Times in 68 Posts
Rep Power: 4
bobperry will become famous soon enough
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Brent:
Are you sure you want to talk about yacht quality "fair"?
This is fair. I have never seen anything from you that looks remotely fair by this standard.

Maybe you don't have the eye to judge "fair".
Kind of fair is not fair.
Attached Thumbnails
Pros and cons of steel sailboats-5sep1.jpg   Pros and cons of steel sailboats-5sep2.jpg   Pros and cons of steel sailboats-5sep3.jpg  
__________________
Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Bob's Blog ....


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hunter 36 Pros and Cons? turfguy Hunter 13 03-24-2014 09:34 AM
C & C 24 pros and cons chuckg Boat Review and Purchase Forum 11 04-06-2012 12:45 AM
Pros and Cons of Catalina 350?? turfguy C350 6 10-16-2009 05:17 PM
Watermakers—Pros and Cons Tom Wood Cruising Articles 0 06-11-2002 08:00 PM
Steel Hulls—Pros and Cons Sue & Larry Buying a Boat Articles 0 09-12-2001 08:00 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:06 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.