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Pros and cons of steel sailboats

909K views 5K replies 127 participants last post by  Faster 
#1 ·
I'm thinking about making the leap from fiberglass to steel for our next sailboat. We want to do some far flung cruising - maybe even circumnavigate. Our present boat is a 1977 Tartan 37 and while we love it - since we've had a child and possibly will have another one on the way it might get a bit small for a liveaboard situation.
This summer I drove a big, old steel tour boat around the finger lakes and started thinking that steel might be a good way to get my family around the big marble.
I've spent a week in the Caribbean on a glorious aluminium boat but have never sailed a steel one, so I have lots of questions about their performance as cruising boats?
What are some of the better designers to keep and eye out for?
How good are they in the hot climates?
Are there any extra dangers in lightning?
Thanks for any and all advice you can give.
 
#1,081 ·
Why this ever became a comparison/dogfight between cost conscious cruising and new custom designs from Bob Perry is beyond me. It was about the advantages of steel, and then BS claimed that his was the cheapest way to go cruising - although he later admitted that GRP was cheaper.

So to summarize.
  • If you want to be a cost conscious cruiser now, go in a proven GRP boat (and if You're in North America you'd do well to pick a Perry design, however You'd be hard pressed to find one in Europe).
  • If you have the Money get a custom designed boat (Again Bob would probably be a great choice)
  • If you're in between the two scenarios, and have the time. money, and inclination to build yourself, go for a BS design that by the very nature of the material/build/design will be less of a sailing machine than the above.

Another Family that barely survived their World cruise: The Yacht » Gunvør XL
They did the World ARC (which I wouldn't have), they had the Money to do it in an expensive boat (which I don't), and in a fast boat (which I think is a great choice) so horses for courses.
 
#1,083 ·
Good summary!

I would add the following...

- If your in the in between, and you like the idea of steel, have looked at aluminium and dismissed it for reasons probably to do with cost, and you want to build yourself, then Brent Swain is one of several options, I would suggest that there are designs in steel that offer the advantages of the material with better performance.

I would look at

Van De Stadt Yacht Designs

Graham Radford designs

Grahame Shannon

Dudley Dix Designs

Bruce Roberts
 
#1,082 ·
Exactly!
I don't give a rat's patootey what you sail. I am glad as hell that it isn't a "Bob or Brent" world. That would be very boring. I am good friends with lots of other designers. We all have our niche and we respect each other's work. When we get together we give each other a hard time for the fun of it but there is that layer of respect that joins us as a group. Can't see BS fitting into that group with his exclusionary and narrow attitudes.
 
#1,085 ·
Bob you contributed positively and provided a lot of great info, but we all got in a fight with Brent, even those of us that know and respects steel.
So don't take my ramblings as anything else :)

My problem is that Brent most likely could be a great contributor IF he changed his ways.

/Joms
 
#1,087 · (Edited)
Oh yeah, I forgot about the attack on my wife. That was a really low point Brent's "argument".

I'm not sure why there is an "argument".

I have been fortunate to have been the technical editor for SAILING magazine for the past 35 years. It's a funny story how I got the job but I have enjoyed it a lot. Each month I get to study three or four new designs from other designers. This has been a tremendous help to me in my own design work. I am constantly exposed to what's new and different in the world of yacht design. It's fun and eye opening at times.

My point being, I have no problem at all with the work of others if I think it is quality work regardless of the genre or the material. But when presented with shoddy design work I tell my editor, rather than review and trash the design, "No thanks, I won't review that design."

So, I say to anyone who thinks I have a narrow view of the world of yacht design , " You have not been paying attention." If you still doubt what I am saying you can buy volumes one through five of my reviews from SAILING magazine. There you can find many years of me having fun looking at the work of other designers.

I am not exclusionary. I am not an elitist. I'm just a guy who loves boats of all kinds.

Here is a link to a ferro cement boat I designed when I was 26 years old. My second design that was built. It's still going strong today and to my eye looking pretty darn handsome. Not bad work for a kid.

Taken from CA:
Is it true. "Custom Ferro-Cement Ketch (Robert Perry design),"

http://www.yachtworl...da#.UjSwMmTF1vY
 
#1,089 ·
I joined this thread just a couple weeks ago, so I was not aware that Brent attacked Bob's wife. That pretty much says it all for me about Brent.

I personally know Bob's wife very well, she is a lovely wonderful person. My wife and I are very very fond of her.

I can not imagine any rational reason to attack her.
Then again, most husbands choose the correct spouse, not sure why the wives choose us?!?! that includes mr bp's spouse! or mine, or td's or..............
 
#1,090 ·
Kim:
Brent has never met my wife. I don't post photos of her so he can't know what she looks like. But he was and remains desperate and that was the best he could do.

I was inclined to come back with my own Witty and erudite, "Your mother wears combat boots" but I though better of it.

Thunder! I like it.
 
#1,092 ·
"It is not by accident that in Europe you cannot find a single steel production boat builder (some decades ago there were several) and many production aluminum boats."

Very good point Paulo.

For the list of steel boat designers I'd add Yves-Marie Tanton. He is very good and really understands performance and has designed for all materials. On top of that he is a decent fellow.
 
#1,095 ·
Proof positive that those damn plastic tubs are utterly useless ....

Funnelweb | High Performance Sailing?. where fast just ain't fast enough!

Funny coincidence ... I was visiting some mates in Newcastle early in the year just as these guys were getting ready to head out for the start of the Melbourne to Osaka then last evening same place as FunnelWeb came home around midnight.

Surprisingly (insert sarcasm warning) the boat looks in pretty good shape.
 
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#1,097 ·
I finally got to a place where internet access is unlimited. So in the next couple of days I will respond, point by point, to Smack's naïve , amateur , inexperienced disinformation comments. Right now, the suns going down, and its getting colder. Still warm enough for a swim in the lake today, but not much longer.
 
#1,100 ·
So in the next couple of days I will respond, point by point, to Smack's naïve , amateur , inexperienced disinformation comments.
But Brent, Smack didn't actually say anything. He collated everything you said.

The naive amateurish misinformation was all YOU. Feel free to address your quoted comments however, several times you have been invited to substantiate your claims, I look forward to you finally doing so.

How's Smack's Brentblock??
 
#1,099 · (Edited)
Interesting that the strongest opponents of steel are the ones who have never sailed one, and have never built owned or maintained one, but simply parrot the disinformation propagated by plastic boat salesmen. This was supposed to be a pros and cons of steel sailboats discussion. The fact that the only pros were from the only person on this debate ( a pro) who has built, designed and sailed for decades on steel sailboats, the only one with any first hand experience on the subject, and the only cons were from those who have no experience on the subject ,and who imply that only cons should be allowed (Cons in more ways than one).
As for performance , Silas Crosby's times were in the same range as most heavily loaded offshore cruisers , better than many, regardless of material. Paul Wilsons comments on the origamiboats site are similar experiences, faster than many stock fibreglass boats.
Moitessier ( who's steel boat I had nothing to do with) made similar fast passage times, in the roaring 40s, with none of the failures one would expect as normal on similar voyage in a plastic boat.
 
#1,101 · (Edited)
Interesting that the strongest opponents of steel are the ones who have never sailed one, and have never built owned or maintained one
Strong opponents of steel??

Would you like to identify these ghastly beasts and which posts you refer to? Then we can discuss their specific qualifications to speak on this subject.

I personally just don't see it. People discussed the design considerations and also expressed personal preferences against steel for varying reasons, while conceding that it has advantages.

I only see 'strong opponents' to some of your more outrageous claims.

...simply parrot the disinformation propagated by plastic boat salesmen.
This is typical paranoid, patronising BS crap. We are capable of disagreeing with you all on our own without parroting anyone thanks. This disinformation you speak of, would you care to produce some data that proves it to be disinformation??

As for performance , Silas Crosby's times were in the same range as most heavily loaded offshore cruisers , better than many, regardless of material. Paul Wilsons comments on the origamiboats site are similar experiences, faster than many stock fibreglass boats.
Moitessier ( who's steel boat I had nothing to do with) made similar fast passage times, in the roaring 40s
Anecdotal but interesting information. What is your point?? Is it that ALL Brent boats are faster than ALL 'plastic' boats? Give me a break. That some steel boats can go faster than some 'plastic' boats?? Well of course.

In general though the point stands that generally steel boats because of their weight are going to perform more poorly than a similar 'plastic' or 'aluminum' boat, particularly in a smaller yacht. This is actually based on scientific fact and figures. You can't counter physics and Newton's Law by saying I know a guy on a steel boat that once in The Pacific went faster than a plastic boat.
 
#1,104 ·
It would be interesting to know the ratio of plastic-to-steel for the sailboats that have rounded the Horn. I've read about quite a few plastics having successful roundings (your Baba, Jean Socrates, Michael's Hunter "Sequitur", the Vendee boats, the VOR boats, and on and on). Very few steel.
 
#1,105 · (Edited)
There was a Nordic 44 in S. America. The owner left his wife off and continued with plans nto opick her up at some arranged point. He didn't show up and this got tense. He showed up in the Falklands after rounding the Horn solo. His explanation as I recall was something like, "I just felt like going on."

Great looking boat, fast and a delight to sail. Tough enough apparently.
 

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#1,106 ·
Brent - to sweeten the pot on the block deal, I'll also throw in this snazzy ad for your yacht design firm...FOR FREE!



That's a $1,200 value! It would be $2,500 but I stole the creative from Dos Equis.

(PS - Between you and me, that starboard bow hull surface looks a tiny bit wavy. Some filler ought to fix that right up.)
 
#1,107 ·
Seems to recall the OP was pro and con of steel boats. It's a shame that BS doesn't share his view of cons just the pros. Would believe as a builder and given his cruising experience he would be very familiar with the cons. Think most of use know the cons of GRP and other constructions. Would be very educational if he would share his thoughts given the performance data appears to be not forthcoming.
 
#1,122 ·
Brent: you are getting weird again. Back away from the pipe and chill.

No you boats are not "in the middle" of the performance range. Your boats are close to the middle of the bottom and you cannot provide a shred of credible evidence that would prove otherwise. Your shapes are derived from geometry. That's fine but it's not the way to design performance into a boat. And don't think us really dumb enough to believe that ridiculous twadlle about "passsing the racing fleet off San Diego". Right.

There is so much I'd like to say here. But it would be unkind. I'll just shut up and let Brent continue with his desperate rant.

Fuzzy One:
Are you saying the Ft10m is not a live aboard?

Fact is that I can design boats like ther Ft10m that can smoke past any BS boat on any day just goes to show that I have a broad range of skills. In his wildest dreams BS could not design a boat lioke this. To me it's just another boat for a different purpose.
 

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#1,132 · (Edited)
Stuffers is what it is. Enough said.
Miss you guys, but I can still come here for a visit now and then. Too bad it didn't work out at stuffers for everybody. Where is Sailingdog anyway? :laugher

My wife and I met smack back in Texas. It was cool to actually meet the legend in person!

Keep it up here. You guys are a class act.

Ralph
Sea turtle visitor | sailing away with R & B
 
#1,127 ·
Keeping this thread to topic ie pros and cons,. I'd like to point out that the production of so many plastic hulls, which are actually modified oil , is surely a factor in global warming and climate change.This partial responsibility for the thinning of the Arctic ice has so angered the northern angels as they lose their ancestral dancing territory that they have caused an increase in stormy weather in temperate latitudes in the hope of destroying as many GRP boats as possible. You may well ask 'How many angels are involved?' Hows that for thread adherence?
 
#1,128 ·
Are you F'ing kidding me? all those plastic hulls,how about the millions of tons of plastic disposable diapers,styrofoam cups, the billions of tons of plastic household crap that is produced and buried everyday.The entire history of fiberglass boat production world wide wouldnt compare to a single week of that. I tell what would though and thats a Chinese coal fired steel mill, just one has caused more enviromental damage that all the plastic and wood boatbuilding in the last 50 years.
 
#1,129 ·
Fuzzer:
I can't believe you tried to whizz below on the Ft10m.
It's not that kind of live aboard.

Of course Brent is going to say, "Oh yeah just see what happens to an FT10m when it goes on the rocks."

To begin with, the Ft10m, that could sail circles around your 34'er, is just a race boat and not a cruiser. But since you were probably going to bring up the subject I'll say that an Ft10m in Sydney Harbor broke its mooring in a storm and pounded on the rocks for two days There was damage to the lifting keel trunk but the rest of the boat came through the ordeal very well. The boat is still racing.
 
#1,130 · (Edited)
Oh Pshaw Perry, pshaw. are you honestly suggesting a 20 year old VDS with all our gear could not keep up with an FT ?

sigh.

OK I concede you this one point but if the sucker didn't give me right of way then I'd nail him. As for the FT still racing ... sounds like us. everyone else back at the bar and we'd still be racing. :)

cheers
 
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