SailNet Community banner
  • SailNet is a forum community dedicated to Sailing enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about sailing, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, repairs, reviews, maintenance, and more!
Status
Not open for further replies.

Pros and cons of steel sailboats

909K views 5K replies 127 participants last post by  Faster 
#1 ·
I'm thinking about making the leap from fiberglass to steel for our next sailboat. We want to do some far flung cruising - maybe even circumnavigate. Our present boat is a 1977 Tartan 37 and while we love it - since we've had a child and possibly will have another one on the way it might get a bit small for a liveaboard situation.
This summer I drove a big, old steel tour boat around the finger lakes and started thinking that steel might be a good way to get my family around the big marble.
I've spent a week in the Caribbean on a glorious aluminium boat but have never sailed a steel one, so I have lots of questions about their performance as cruising boats?
What are some of the better designers to keep and eye out for?
How good are they in the hot climates?
Are there any extra dangers in lightning?
Thanks for any and all advice you can give.
 
#4,077 · (Edited)
Kim Went out on the SLIVER FRANCIS LEE to check the prop pitch after adjusting it up two notches. We got 9.3 knots with the first pitch setting on the four blade Max Prop. PYI suggested upping the pitch one notch. I suggested two. He was hitting top rpm way too easily. I knew we could do way better than 9.3 knots. He was doing over 10 knots when he turned around and went back to the dock. He didn't max it out but soon as he saw 10 knots + he thought that was enough. We may have another half a knot in it yet. Tonight Kim is very happy. He said there is no bow wave and no stern wave. That I will have to see for myself. I wish I were there but I have to go back to the East Coast on some boat business on Sunday so I am jammed here right now. ****ski!
 
#4,079 ·
Say hello to Phil Bob . He's a good guy too. Was nervous about the four blade max prop but seems a good design from what you imply. Wonder with such a easily driven hull what mpg Kim will get.
'Nother down side to bs boats for a cruiser. Given weight in the hull less available payload.less fuel. Less range under power. A non issue for a waterline or other 50'er in steel. Big issue in a 36'er where space and load carrying is at a premium. Had a real close crawl around the bilges look at a puffin done in steel.owner was ex ship captain. Boat was immaculate . Wood work was Bristol. Center boarder. The Dutch do great boats in steel. Truly understand the material. At 46' had ample tankage. Think in larger sizes proportion of total weight due to steel hull drops and then steel makes more sense.
 
#4,083 · (Edited)
When detailing a steel boat, it is far easier and safer to grind parts AFTER they have been welded down ( grinders can be dangerous). Thus, the only parts which have to be ground before welding them down, are parts which are inaccessible to a grinder, once they have been welded down. Thus welding parts down and grinding later is the INTELLIGENT way of doing things, while advocating the opposite is the opposite of intelligence, as is criticizing doing things the safe and intelligent way .
There is nothing more pointless than polishing that which will end up buried in foam, and never seen again. That is what turns an affordable, one year project into a ten year plus, super expensive project.
As plastic boats are made of petroleum products, showing a part of a steel boat in its early stage and criticizing it for not being polished enough ,before it has been ground and finished, is like pointing to an oil slick and saying "Man, what an ugly plastic boat!" or showing a rough cut piece of wood, or a log, and saying " Man, what poor boat building, or cabinet making."
People trying to deceive, often resort to such quite infantile grasping at straws. Such people are a useless, and expensive source of advice. They are not the ones doing your work nor paying your bills.

One should never let childish "Yachtie" snobbery cut into ones cruising time and budget.
 
#4,084 · (Edited)
I just had a look at page ten of the February issue of Pacific Yachting. There is a good photo of how to make a sliding hatch into a proper door.
The one in the photo could have been made longer, the same size as the original opening , or a cupola on top could have made it even larger. It could easily be made up on a work bench, and installed in a couple of hours. Aluminium would be the ultimate material for such a door.
I just saw the same photo on page 5 of the latest copy of "Ocean Navigator."
 
#4,087 ·
It would be nice if we could get an another boat builder into this discussion that builds in steel. At this point, I probably wouldn't believe Brent if he told me the sun would rise tomorrow. I haven't really considered a steel boat but since the only "facts" that have been presented by the "ONLY person with extensive experience in designing, building, and cruising in steel boats" have been (I've heard Brent preach that till I almost :puke typing it) "some friend that said" or that they are indestructible (which I laugh at every time I read it) with many negative comments about how weak every other material is, how inept every other designer is, and how greedy every other builder is. Jeez! WTH!

It would be nice to hear the actual pro's and con's of a small boat built in steel. Brent, I'm sure you will have something smart to say but I'll tell you this. ABSOLUTELY NO MATERIAL KNOWN TO MAN IS PERFECT FOR EVERY SINGLE APPLICATION!!!! Say what you want but I'm right on this and you know it, even if you wont admit it.

So here is a challenge; Since you are suppose to know more about steel than any other man alive, list me 3 con's of building a small boat in steel. I'll ask Bob Perry to do the same with fiberglass. Unless I've totally misjudged him, I'm willing to bet that Bob recognizes both the strengths AND the weaknesses of whatever material he designs for. Are you?
 
#4,088 · (Edited)
On big con is getting all the disinformation attacks from plastic boat disciples, who know nothing about steel.
Yes it is heavier. Wish it was lighter, but the weight difference is far less than the differences in the weigh of gear any two cruisers will put aboard.
Yes it can corrode, and needs a a bit of paint touch up from time to time. These are far outweighed by the advantages of steel for full time cruising. Occasional weekend cruisers and marina queens don't enjoy the full benefits of steel.
Seeing how those with zero hands on experience are constantly attacking the only one here who has a lot of steel boat experience, is a serious deterrent to anyone with steel boat experience posting anything here. Many have told me that is why they don't take part . It is why some great designers gave up on BD.Net, leaving only amateurs and trolls to control the debate there, rendering the site useless for steel boat information..
 
#4,089 ·
Well, that's two. Weight and corrosion. I'm not counting the disinformation because you have been just as guilty of that. As far as people attacking you.... Have you noticed that when you give those little tidbits of experience and DONT cram your experience down everyone's throat or try to put down other peoples knowledge, experience, or preferred building material, that even the likes of Bob Perry compliments you. At least to me, that is experience talking and worth listening to. But when you make claims that even someone with my limited knowledge question, and someone asks you to back that claim up, you either can't or won't, and then proceed to toot your experience, dismiss them as amateurs, and claim you're being attacked.

So, do you have a third con?

What limitations does the extra weight put on your design?

I think you gave some good info many pages back on how to control corrosion on the inside of the hull.
 
#4,096 ·
This just popped up as the Featured Sailboat of the week:

31' Custom steel Brent Swain 31

Volvo MD2 diesel, Balmar high out alternator with ARS 4 multi-stage external regulator. Electronics: Furuno 1623 Radar, Garmin 188C Plotter, Raymarine ST-1000 autopilot, West Marine VHS 600 w/DSC, Si-Tex SSB receiver, BlueSea 13 position distribution panel, Xantrex battery monitor.Lot's of tools spare parts, list too long to list. Just had boat hauled, bottom striped to bare metal, rust treatment, pre-primer, 2 coats primer, 2 coats of anti-fouling paint. New deck painted with anti skid paint.New zinks on hull,shaft, and rudder. Total spent this week $4,000.00 Feb. 10, 2014 Asking price reduced from $25,000.00 to $23,000.00 This is a great boat for a young couple looking for a 2 to 4 year adventure in Carribean. Xenos is located in a rented slip in Marina Majax on Isla Mujeres, Cancun, Mexico The marina is in the best Hurricane hole in the Western Caribbean. The slip rent is $300.00 per month, this includes water and WiFi. Cancun airport to boat is 1 hr. & 15 min.
Located in Isla Mujeres Cancun Mexico, Outside United States.
For information, call: (404) 372-6929
View Contact Information and Full Details »

Length: 31' Year: 1995 Asking: $23,000
 
#4,098 ·
This just popped up as the Featured Sailboat of the week:

31' Custom steel Brent Swain 31

Volvo MD2 diesel, Balmar high out alternator with ARS 4 multi-stage external regulator. Electronics: Furuno 1623 Radar, Garmin 188C Plotter, Raymarine ST-1000 autopilot, West Marine VHS 600 w/DSC, Si-Tex SSB receiver, BlueSea 13 position distribution panel, Xantrex battery monitor.Lot's of tools spare parts, list too long to list. Just had boat hauled, bottom striped to bare metal, rust treatment, pre-primer, 2 coats primer, 2 coats of anti-fouling paint. New deck painted with anti skid paint.New zinks on hull,shaft, and rudder. Total spent this week $4,000.00 Feb. 10, 2014 Asking price reduced from $25,000.00 to $23,000.00 This is a great boat for a young couple looking for a 2 to 4 year adventure in Carribean. Xenos is located in a rented slip in Marina Majax on Isla Mujeres, Cancun, Mexico The marina is in the best Hurricane hole in the Western Caribbean. The slip rent is $300.00 per month, this includes water and WiFi. Cancun airport to boat is 1 hr. & 15 min.
Located in Isla Mujeres Cancun Mexico, Outside United States.
For information, call: (404) 372-6929
View Contact Information and Full Details »

Length: 31' Year: 1995 Asking: $23,000
Sounds like a lot of pansy yachty stuff on that boat. ;)

So much for 2 hours work and $50 per year in maintenance.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wulf and mitiempo
#4,104 ·
One way to reduce weight in a steel boat is to take a serious look at how existing components do a structural job, before duplicating them. Chines and centerelines are huge longitudinal angle irons, structurally. The hull deck joint is a huge longitudinal T section structurally, as are side decks . The centreline tank top is a huge fully welded longitudinal bulkhead, structurally. All of these components are, structurally, the equivalent of fully welded longitudinal bulkheads. The cabin sides are beams on edge , with the top welded to the cabin top , and the bottom fully welded to the decks ,not likely to go anywhere. Yet one often sees totally redundant knees and other reinforcing bits and pieces welded in these areas, displaying a total lack of comprehension of the roles played by these components in the overall structure of a shell.
 
#4,106 ·
For someone who simply wants a big boat to live aboard and cruise BC Waters , John Sampson's 50 ft ferro ketch is for sale super cheap in Ladysmith, BC. The masts are rotten as is the wheelhouse ,but the 6 cylinder diesel runs well, so she is mobile. Accommodations are in good shape. She is big enough to take a steel mast well.
 
#4,108 ·
I visited John on Storm Strutter a couple of decades ago and it was in VERY scruffy shape then - looked like a very hard worked workboat, which I guess was what it was after those Pacific loops with paying passengers.

I shudder to think what it must be like now. That is a HUGE boat - probably 25 tons or more. Bringing it back would be a several year project and then you'd only have a ferro boat, albeit one with some history.

It should be turned into Samson Reef somewhere in the islands. :D
 
#4,107 ·
What would you estimate the negative impact would be on righting moment with a steel mast?
Typed at 30,000ft in 1st Class coming home from NC after spending four days visiting the 63ft ketch with my Canadian buddy Tim. We get home late tonight, decompress tomorrow and sail Kim's boat for the first time on saturday.

I am not ready for ugly boats, steel or ferro.��
 
#4,110 ·
"Solo sailor Andrew Halcrow was airlifted by a Chilean Navy helicopter from his 32ft steel yacht on March 8th after he was dismasted in breaking seas west of Cape Horn. "

From cruising compass.

Not always the hull that matters. Read reports seems dismastings, blow out portlights, inversions/knock downs, crew fatigue and injuries/illness etc. as likely or more likely scenarios for boat abandonment. This is reason I have repetitively asked Brent for statistics on RM, point of vanishing stability, GS graph etc. In absence of same his statements of sea worthiness are simple hearsay.
 
#4,113 ·
Heh Heh...

You and Kim should be very proud.

I hope he races her a bit. I'm looking forward having my butt kicked by her.

We'll have the camera ready and be watching. Shouldn't be two hard to pick her out.

SAT...LIGHT WIND. A CHANCE OF RAIN IN THE AFTERNOON.

SAT NIGHT...NE WIND 10 KT...BECOMING LIGHT. WIND WAVES 1 FT OR LESS.
 
#4,114 ·
Denda:
The plan now is that we will be leaving the dock at Shilshole around 10:30 am. We'll do a short, maybe 2 hour sail, just to see what is working and what is not. It's a simple rig and deck layout so I think our problems will be minimal but there is always something that can be tweaked to work better.

The bad news is that If I had stayed in NC over the weekend I could have seen David Allen Coe appearing at a local bar. I may not get that close to seeing him again. That's a shame. He's a fav of mine.
 
#4,119 · (Edited)
That sounds like a great rating for 'gentleman's daysailor'. That is pretty comparable with a J-160 SD which rates -9 around here. I am surprised that you have a -7 rating. On the East Coast PHRF ratings are award in 3 second increments.

I am not sure there is any relevance in this, but originally the PHRF baseline '0' rating was based on a 12 meter of the era, which was considered to be the fastest race boat of that day. Of course you can see how times have changed when a short handed 63 footer is seven seconds a mile faster than a fully crewed, 72 foot, grand prix race boat.

I will love to see the photos, and hear how she sails.

Jeff
 
#4,121 ·
I will love to see the photos, and hear how she sails.

Jeff
I will make them available at a reasonable price. :) Also comparative stern wake videos for the 1D35 vs Francis Lee. That will be interesting....

Big fat butt vs. Perry double ender

Remember, Bob and Kim.. You will owe us 42 seconds a mile!
 
#4,126 · (Edited)
I am unaware of any of my boats getting a PHRF rating, as they are owned by cruisers not racers. It would be interesting tho.
I remember a school teacher in the 70s designing building and racing his own boat. He rigged her with galvanized rigging made his own sails and had one sheet winch. When it came to rating they looked at his galv rigging , the fact that he designed her himself with no previous experince in the field, made his own sails etc etc, rolled their eyes and laughed sarcastically, and gave him a dead low rating. He beat the others boat for boat. So, still not believing that sommeone with so little qualifications couold get it right, and admiting that their prejudices could possibly be wroing, they raied his PHRF rating slightly . Again he beat them boat for boat. That went on for a while, while the experts could never admitt that their snobby prejudices could possibly be wrong . He basically raced against their snobby prejudices!
That could work for a brentboat as well , especially an aluminium one, given the blindness of the snobs' prejudice against them.

As I cruise full time ,often away from the internet (you know ,cruising and sailing, the pastime that so many here give endless advice on, while rarely ever doing it?) there is no way I can possibly answer or respond to every comment or question made here, being so greatly outnumbered by people who have nothing else to do. That would require me to be on line as much as they are , and give up cruising! No way! The quick response some of them have to my posts, is an indicator that they are on line full time, all the time, leaving them little time to get any experience in the subject they claim to be such experts in.
 
#4,127 ·
That's too bad. My boat was built for and is owned by cruisers as well. They go ocean voyaging. Agreed miles travelled in a day is what counts to this crowd not PHRF rating. Still, it does have a PHFT rating- of 90. It also has extensive system of hand holds/grab rails at shoulder ( or lower ) height. Double safety glassed lights structurally much stronger than plexiglass which due to flexibility is much more prone to blow out. We have a JSD but unfortunately this doesn't totally prevent knockdowns or other untoward events. The rig has multiple redundancies to allow wide safety margins in storms. All these features are commonplace on any current GRP boat designed for blue water and not specific to my boat. In short the rule not the exception. Once again you fail to provide factual specific information- LPS,RM, GS curve so all your statements concerning safety at sea are viewed as deceptive.
SImple one my LPS is 127 what's your's?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
Top