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  #21  
Old 12-02-2012
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Re: Looking at a Alberg 35

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Originally Posted by L124C View Post
How does a boat track well and have excessive weather helm at the same time? Seems like a contradiction in terms. Don't mind heeling, but if I couldn't tune out the weather helm with sail trim or reducing sail (nothing "fancy"), that would be a problem. Heading up occasionally in a gust is fine, but you shouldn't have to fight weather helm for hours. Surely Alberg knew that!
You're right. I should have qualified that the weather helm became uncomfortable when the winds picked up. I don't remember the exact conditions, but I think the winds were about 15 knots + that day. And the "fancy" sail adjustments that brought the situation under control were dropping the traveller, then reefing the main. When we didn't have to fight the weather helm, the boat did track straight and true.
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  #22  
Old 12-02-2012
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Re: Looking at a Alberg 35

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Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
Can you expand on that? Maximum torque and hull speed doesn't intuitively make sense.
No? I think it does - torque is the "grunt" that actually pushes your boat - horsepower is only torque delivered over time. When you step on the gas at a light, it's torque that pushes you back in your seat (and please don't say it's inertia, I know that subtlety )

The peak torque RPM is where a diesel is most fuel efficient so having it placed to coincide with a boats hull speed is going to give you the best "gas mileage".

Stationary engines chug along around their torque peak - they are sized to do that - it's more efficient than running a larger engine slower or a smaller engine faster.

This is the basic concept behind varying or modifying a props pitch - it moves the engines RPM into a more efficient range.
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  #23  
Old 12-03-2012
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Re: Looking at a Alberg 35

If you are going to live with a Yanmar, I highly recommend spending the bucks to get the service manual. It has more info, than you'll ever need and EVERYTHING that you will someday be looking for. All the torque curves are in there and good instructions on how to fix everything. I have found it essential on many occasions. The 3GM reaches peak torque between 2200 to 2800 rpm at 13-17 hp. The 2gm reaches peak at 2800 as well at 11 hp. The trick is to size the wheel so that when you are at hull speed, the engine is at the low end of that rpm spec. Fuel consumption for the 2GM looks like it's most efficient at 2800, which is also the peak torque. The 3GM is the same. The only issue is whether the 2GM can get the boat to hull speed at an efficient rpm. I doubt it. You would need to spin the 2GM at 3300 to get to only 13 hp. The 3GM on my boat does get the boat to hull speed at 16-18 hp/27-2800 rpm. They run very comfortably at this rpm. Hope this helps with your comparison.
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Alberg 35: With a philosophical flourish Cato throws himself upon his sword; I quietly take to the ship.

Last edited by smurphny; 12-03-2012 at 11:54 AM. Reason: error changed to DIN ratings
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  #24  
Old 12-03-2012
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Re: Looking at a Alberg 35

Looks like a nice boat but the asking price is exceptionally high. Sounds like the owner is trying to recoup the costs of the re-power. I bought my A35 three years ago (1962 Hull# 54 - Auriga) and paid $7500. They were originally asking $19000. It was in about the same shape as the boat you're looking at. It had been well cared for but as in your case, nothing had been upgraded (except the engine) for many many years. It had a relatively new Universal M25XPB which is the exact same engine as the Beta 28. Both are marinized versions of the Kubota D1005. Strangely enough, Beta rates the output at 28hp while Universal/Westerbeke rates it at 26hp and Kubota rates it at 23.5hp. Not sure how each came up with different ratings but I'll trust Kubota. This M25XPB is just about right for this boat. I've had to fight some fairly strong and its close to being a bit short on power. I think an A35 will be a bit underpowered with a Beta 20 but maybe they worked some magic with prop sizing.

Deck delamination repair is a big project. Don't let anyone trivialize the efforts involved. My deck was about 90% saturated and it took me about two months full time to complete the re-core. It's a very weather dependent project. This would probably be the biggest project you would have to undertake. My build sounds slightly different than smurphny's. On #54, there is solid laminate under the mast step (no core) running the full width of the cabin-house and the mast wiring runs through a fitting on the deck on the stbd side of the mast. The supporting structure below is 12 teak stanchions. 6 on each side of the bulkhead that support a pretty massive white oak beam. So, I guess the main bulkhead could be considered semi-structural. The beam was in good shape as were the bulkheads. I had a very small amount of perimeter rot where one of the chainplates had leaked a bit but it was easily repairable.

The formica bulkheads are a great surface for painting. I sanded mine with 220 and painted them with with 1-part polyurethane. I also re-varnished all the interior mahogany. Looks great and was a relatively quick and easy project. I took inspiration from smurphny's composting head build and built one myself. That was one of the best upgrades I've done to the boat. No more stinky hoses and holding tanks.

As far as sailing is concerned, weather helm was terrible with the original sails. They were a bit blown out. I bought a new main with three reef points and a 135% rf genny. The difference was like night and day. I also installed a new Garhauer traveler which gives a lot more control over the main sail than the old system. Weather helm with the new sails is quite manageable. In under 10 knots, I fly the full main and genny. Above 10 knots, weather helm kicks up pretty steadily. I usually tie in one reef between 10-18 knots and leave up the full genny. It handles quite well with this combination.

If your rigging is original as mine was, that's one of the first things you'll need to look at. All of my swages had cracks. It was and issue of when, not if, one was going to fail. My chainplates were also pretty corroded at the deck penetration so they were replaced. This is a pretty expensive project. Cost me about ~$2000 to replace all the rigging and chainplates including adding an inner forestay for hank-on foresails. Add to that the $5000 for the new sails and I had about $7000 in rig and sails.

I think the A35 is one of the most solid cruising boats you can buy. They don't have the cabin volume of some of the more modern cruisers but I find it more than adequate. I'm 6'4" and can stand in most parts of the cabin. I think the boat you're looking at would make a fine project, but it looks worth more in the 10K-12K rather than 18K considering the lack of systems. Like I said, the PO wanted $19000 for mine and I paid $7500. I documented some of my projects on the Plastic Classic Forum here: Plastic Classic Forum • View topic - Alberg 35 Refit. I've done a number of projects since then that I'll update soon. Let me know if you have any questions.
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  #25  
Old 12-03-2012
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Re: Looking at a Alberg 35

Forgot to mention....make sure to look at the rudder. If it's the original mahogany rudder, there is a good chance it will need attention or replacement. Mine was so punky and rotten, I could pull 6 inch chunks of wood out of it by hand.
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  #26  
Old 12-03-2012
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Re: Looking at a Alberg 35

Quote:
Originally Posted by brob76 View Post
Looks like a nice boat but the asking price is exceptionally high. Sounds like the owner is trying to recoup the costs of the re-power. I bought my A35 three years ago (1962 Hull# 54 - Auriga) and paid $7500. They were originally asking $19000. It was in about the same shape as the boat you're looking at. It had been well cared for but as in your case, nothing had been upgraded (except the engine) for many many years. It had a relatively new Universal M25XPB which is the exact same engine as the Beta 28. Both are marinized versions of the Kubota D1005. Strangely enough, Beta rates the output at 28hp while Universal/Westerbeke rates it at 26hp and Kubota rates it at 23.5hp. Not sure how each came up with different ratings but I'll trust Kubota. This M25XPB is just about right for this boat. I've had to fight some fairly strong and its close to being a bit short on power. I think an A35 will be a bit underpowered with a Beta 20 but maybe they worked some magic with prop sizing.

Deck delamination repair is a big project. Don't let anyone trivialize the efforts involved. My deck was about 90% saturated and it took me about two months full time to complete the re-core. It's a very weather dependent project. This would probably be the biggest project you would have to undertake. My build sounds slightly different than smurphny's. On #54, there is solid laminate under the mast step (no core) running the full width of the cabin-house and the mast wiring runs through a fitting on the deck on the stbd side of the mast. The supporting structure below is 12 teak stanchions. 6 on each side of the bulkhead that support a pretty massive white oak beam. So, I guess the main bulkhead could be considered semi-structural. The beam was in good shape as were the bulkheads. I had a very small amount of perimeter rot where one of the chainplates had leaked a bit but it was easily repairable.

The formica bulkheads are a great surface for painting. I sanded mine with 220 and painted them with with 1-part polyurethane. I also re-varnished all the interior mahogany. Looks great and was a relatively quick and easy project. I took inspiration from smurphny's composting head build and built one myself. That was one of the best upgrades I've done to the boat. No more stinky hoses and holding tanks.

As far as sailing is concerned, weather helm was terrible with the original sails. They were a bit blown out. I bought a new main with three reef points and a 135% rf genny. The difference was like night and day. I also installed a new Garhauer traveler which gives a lot more control over the main sail than the old system. Weather helm with the new sails is quite manageable. In under 10 knots, I fly the full main and genny. Above 10 knots, weather helm kicks up pretty steadily. I usually tie in one reef between 10-18 knots and leave up the full genny. It handles quite well with this combination.

If your rigging is original as mine was, that's one of the first things you'll need to look at. All of my swages had cracks. It was and issue of when, not if, one was going to fail. My chainplates were also pretty corroded at the deck penetration so they were replaced. This is a pretty expensive project. Cost me about ~$2000 to replace all the rigging and chainplates including adding an inner forestay for hank-on foresails. Add to that the $5000 for the new sails and I had about $7000 in rig and sails.

I think the A35 is one of the most solid cruising boats you can buy. They don't have the cabin volume of some of the more modern cruisers but I find it more than adequate. I'm 6'4" and can stand in most parts of the cabin. I think the boat you're looking at would make a fine project, but it looks worth more in the 10K-12K rather than 18K considering the lack of systems. Like I said, the PO wanted $19000 for mine and I paid $7500. I documented some of my projects on the Plastic Classic Forum here: Plastic Classic Forum • View topic - Alberg 35 Refit. I've done a number of projects since then that I'll update soon. Let me know if you have any questions.
I paid $9500 for mine, essentially the value of the basically new (75 hrs) Yanmar that the previous owners had installed. I have spent $20,000+ in the restoration project, including all new electronics:radar, SSB,VHF, plotter, computers, software, charts, rigging (including all welded s.s. parts, moving the chainplates outboard, recoring 80% of decks, Norvane, liferaft, re-rod in rudder, head, new manual and elec. pumps, refrigeration, solar panels, rewiring batteries w/ fused system, new batteries and battery box, and more. Don't underestimate what a refit will cost! My expenses were ALL in materials only so if you need to have anyone work on the boat, double that (at least).

Nice job on the plasticclassic site. I like that helm chair! So far I haven't come up with a really good solution to the sitting issue.
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Alberg 35: With a philosophical flourish Cato throws himself upon his sword; I quietly take to the ship.

Last edited by smurphny; 12-03-2012 at 07:02 PM.
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  #27  
Old 12-03-2012
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Re: Looking at a Alberg 35

LOL. I think that helm chair was the first thing in the dumpster, along with the incredibly sketchy lpg system. I refinished the deck and cockpit last spring. I still need to sort out the sitting situation as well.

$20,000 in refit costs is about what I'm looking at in the end. I've probably got about $15,000 in at the moment and still plan to get some electronics. 100% my labor. That was my point about the asking price. If you spend $18,000 on the initial purchase and spend another $20,000 on a refit, you end up with a nearly $40,000 Alberg 35. You could buy another well outfitted cruiser for much less. There is a recently refitted and very well outfitted Alberg 35 for sell on Cruiser's Forum for $23,500: For Sale: Alberg 35, fully equipped! $23,500 obo - Cruisers & Sailing Forums
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  #28  
Old 12-04-2012
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Re: Looking at a Alberg 35

Quote:
Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
If you are going to live with a Yanmar, I highly recommend spending the bucks to get the service manual. It has more info, than you'll ever need and EVERYTHING that you will someday be looking for. All the torque curves are in there and good instructions on how to fix everything. I have found it essential on many occasions. The 3GM reaches peak torque between 2200 to 2800 rpm at 13-17 hp. The 2gm reaches peak at 2800 as well at 11 hp. The trick is to size the wheel so that when you are at hull speed, the engine is at the low end of that rpm spec. Fuel consumption for the 2GM looks like it's most efficient at 2800, which is also the peak torque. The 3GM is the same. The only issue is whether the 2GM can get the boat to hull speed at an efficient rpm. I doubt it. You would need to spin the 2GM at 3300 to get to only 13 hp. The 3GM on my boat does get the boat to hull speed at 16-18 hp/27-2800 rpm. They run very comfortably at this rpm. Hope this helps with your comparison.
The motor in the A35 in the OP is a Beta Marine.
However, I have a Yammar 2GM20 in my current boat. 16hp/18hp at 2800. Cruise at 3000 and it hums. Not to go off topic, but how can the 3GM only be 13-17?

Last edited by L124C; 12-04-2012 at 03:01 AM.
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  #29  
Old 12-04-2012
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Re: Looking at a Alberg 35

Quote:
Originally Posted by L124C View Post
The motor in the A35 in the OP is a Beta Marine.
However, I have a Yammar 2GM20 in my current boat. 16hp/18hp at 2800. Cruise at 3000 and it hums. Not to go off topic, but how can the 3GM only be 13-17?
I thought it was low as well but that's right out of the tech manual. It's the hp at flywheel taken from the curve graphics.
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  #30  
Old 12-04-2012
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Re: Looking at a Alberg 35

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Originally Posted by brob76 View Post
LOL. I think that helm chair was the first thing in the dumpster, along with the incredibly sketchy lpg system. I refinished the deck and cockpit last spring. I still need to sort out the sitting situation as well.

$20,000 in refit costs is about what I'm looking at in the end. I've probably got about $15,000 in at the moment and still plan to get some electronics. 100% my labor. That was my point about the asking price. If you spend $18,000 on the initial purchase and spend another $20,000 on a refit, you end up with a nearly $40,000 Alberg 35. You could buy another well outfitted cruiser for much less. There is a recently refitted and very well outfitted Alberg 35 for sell on Cruiser's Forum for $23,500: For Sale: Alberg 35, fully equipped! $23,500 obo - Cruisers & Sailing Forums
Absolutely. With the current buyer's market in sailboats, the cost of fixing up a basket case is likely a lot higher than buying one that someone else has fixed up. I bought my Alberg because I wanted to work on a boat. I enjoy the fix-up as much as sailing. Being retired, it's great hobby. If the objective is sailing alone then considering a renovation is a questionable idea. The only caveat to that is things become obsolete quickly. If you upgrade electronics, rigging, etc., you start from day 1 on the maintenance aspect of all that stuff. Example: my liferaft ALREADY needs an expensive re-cert.
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