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  #31  
Old 12-14-2012
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Re: Blue Jacket 40 (new racer/cruiser)

The blue jacket is nothing new. It'll be faster than an IP, but so is molassas in december. Plenty of other options out there for 1/2 the price.
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  #32  
Old 12-14-2012
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Re: Catalina 40/J122

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Brian, I don't doubt that is your opinion about what is a performance cruiser to you. I only said in Europe, where there is a bigger variety of boats and a bigger market, a Catalina does not qualify has a performance boat the same way an Oceanis or a Benetau does not qualify. Here we call those boats family cruisers, if we accept the definition that is given for the European boat of the year contest.

I have already explained that the difference that has to do mainly to the ability to be competitive in club racing at a medium level and also have an interior that allows cruising. One thing that all performance cruisers have in common is that they are faster than family cruising boats but also have the ability to have a better control of the sails through adequate rigging. On post 14 I explain better the difference.



No, I have never raced a J122 but I have been inside them several times and if the one you raced was a "was a carbon fire, stripped down racing machine" then it was not a standard J122 but a racing machine made out of a J122. The J122 is not a carbon fiber boat neither a stripped down boat. It has a good cruising interior even if what one consider good depends on the type of sailor. I would say that it is adequate for me.

The designer and shipyard says about the J122:

J/122 is a versatile 40 foot performance sailboat with comfortable live-aboard accommodations, a refined deck layout, low VCG keel with a moderate 7.2' draft.

...An IRC-friendly cruiser/racer, J/122 offers a completely furnished interior, a simple to manage balanced sail plan, head turning sailing performance and great looks-- perhaps the ultimate 40' day sailing, weekending, racing and cruising sailboat...

...The J/122 hull is not extreme in any particular dimension and will have a forgiving and predictable motion in a wide variety of wind and seas conditions...

Construction: J/122 is built by J/Europe of Les Sables d’Olonne in France, an area rich with sailing history and experienced boat builders. She is CE certified category A, and hull & deck are SCRIMP molded with e-glass and vinylester resin with balsa and foam core materials respectively. An extensive SCRIMP molded structural grid supports the keel and mast loads as well as the interior components.


Take a look at some interior photos:













Regarding motion comfort I don't think you are right when you think that the Catalina 40 has an easier motion. The Catalina 40 is a much more beamier boat with less fine entries and therefore will have a much bigger wave drag. That will be reflected in a less easier motion through the waves, particularly upwind, I mean if the boats sail at the same speed.

Brian I hope that you understand that I am not saying bad things about the Catalina 40. I am just saying that is not the same type of boat and that a J122 is not a race boat, but a performance cruiser.

Both type of boats have their "clients" in what regards cruising and racing. I have not any doubt that you would prefer the Catalina but give me the credit to say that I know enough about sailboats to say that I without any doubt would prefer the J122 and not for racing but for cruising.

This does not mean that the J122 is a better cruising boat than the Catalina 40. I am a big adept of relativism in what regards cruising preferences and I guess that if you look to the European market you will see clearly that different sailors prefer different types of cruising boats.

In fact one of the hottest success in the market of the performance cruisers was the Pogo 12.50 (there is a member of this forum that has one and another one considering having one to live aboard), a performance cruiser that has a interior more clean and naked than the one from the J122, but functional and very practical. The Pogo 12.50 Was the elected by European journalists of main sailing magazines as the 2012 European performance cruiser and is a boat thought for performance cruising and long range voyaging.

Regards

Paulo
Hey Paulo! No need to explain. I like you, you know that. SO that being said, let me shoot back at your J122 and why I think it would be a TERRIBLE cruising boat.

First, is the tankage. You have a 42 gallon water tank. SO, since you will average about 5 (some say 8) gallons/day, you reasonably have 5-8 days without needing water... assuming you are alone! Add a spouse or friend, you just cut that in half. Have we even discussed showers? Now you will say, but Brian, I can add a watermaker. Well, let's hope so. But I have been on that boat and I don't remember it just flowing with extra space everywhere. But, assuming you do, now you will be eating up diesel. You have a 35g diesel tank. Now 35 g for a good performing boat is good, but not great for distance cruising. And don't forget, you will be putting a lot of your diesel into making water and charging your batteries. to do this, you need a diesel generator or a Honda type generator which burns gas. THe Honda generators are relatively cheap and effiecient, but they are not real small and they do eat gas. Both the cruising boats that run with us kept them. THey kept more gerry cans of gas than they did diesel. Where are you going to put that generator and gas? When you strat strapping on a bunch of Gerry cans on that low freeboard, not only do you throw off your balance, you also make the decks tighter and risk losing them in a storm offshore. I know. Been there. And here is the kicker: 15 gallon holding tank for waste. 15 gallons?? Really? You will go through about 2-3 gallons a day in waste/person. That is five-7 days before you you are stuffed full and trying to find a marina or heading offshore to pumpout. Reality is that you are closer to 5. In addition, you need a place to put all that food, extra tools, extra parts, clothing, books, etc, etc. You will find that boat is filled up really quick and many of the performance benefits you found out of it have dissapeared.

Now the exception is if cruising mean marina hopping. For some it does. Cruising for me is trying to get away from the cities and the marinas and spending lots of time on the hook.

In my mind, the J122 is a awesome boat for its design. It is fast and fun to sail. With the right crew, it will do well in distance races and even beer cans. And when you are all done, you can relax below in a comfortable setting and spend the night at the marina with your friends in some "luxury". But a cruiser? Nah. Not unless you are marina hopping. And by the way, the numbers I gave above assume only one person. Add 2 or three, and multiply the numbers as such. Put a couple of kids on there, and that boat will be dry in the water tank and busting at the holding in a couple of days.

Last thing, Beneteau and Catalina both have a performance line. It is the First series for Bene and the 400 and 445 for Catalina. These boats have very different designs. I realize you may not consider even these types of boats as performance boats, as we do in the US, but if you don't like the speed of my 400... try stepping on a 380!! I owned one of those too and 5 knots, maybe 5.5 was the best I could plan for on long distances. Yikes!!!

Take care Paulo. Always enjoy your take.

Brian
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  #33  
Old 12-14-2012
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Re: Catalina 40/J122

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
Hey Paulo! No need to explain. I like you, you know that. SO that being said, let me shoot back at your J122 and why I think it would be a TERRIBLE cruising boat.

...
Take care Paulo. Always enjoy your take.

Brian
Brian the feeling is reciprocaland the fact that I disagree, not with your choice, but with your thinking that what you like or style of cruising, applies to all, does not change that.

I know you think the J 122 is a terrible boat for cruising and on the other hand, I that don't race, some years back when the boat come to the market, did not only bought the boat because I had not the money.

Believe me, I am a cruiser, I cruise a lot, live several months for year on my sailing boat, have tried and sailed many types of sailboats and now pretty well what I want as a sailboat and it is a boat like the J122. The boat that I finally had choose (an used boat) is much more close to the J122 than to your boat, this one:

Yachts and Yachting Magazine

This year was the first I had cruised the boat and the average time between going to a marina for water was three weeks. For diesel maybe the double, I mean more than a month.

I know that this boat (or the J 122) would not suit you the same way the Catalina would not suit me. You have said why the J122 would not suit you and I can tell you why the Catalina or a family boat would not suit me: Boring in what regards sailing and with a insufficient capacity of sailing in light winds.

Off course I know this is not your opinion but that's why you can find in the market many different types of cruising boats for different types of cruisers that sail and cruise in different styles. They have almost all a thing in common:

All consider that his boat is the right one to cruise. From the ones that only consider very heavy steel boats, passing for the ones that only consider heavy fiberglass boats, to the ones to whom the offer of the predominant mass production builders (like Catalina) and ending up in the ones that prefer lighter and faster boats, being them monohull or multihull.

People are different as well as the cruising style or the importance they give to enjoy the boat while sailing and that's why there are so many types of cruising boats.

Regarding the J122 I can tell you (because I asked) that the standard water tankage (45G) can be raised to about the double if you want, and I think any cruiser that don't use the boat only locally will want that. The original diesel tankage is enough (35G) for that type of boat.

You have to consider that these type of boats needs about half the wind your boat needs to make some speed over the water. In fact with very weak winds these bots make wind and are faster than the wind so you have to take that in consideration in what regards needs of fuel or motoring.

Take a look at the boat Polar speed:

http://www.jowners.org/docs/J122%20Polar%20Chart.pdf

The boat with 6K wind can make 7K speed but most of all with weaker winds where your boat would almost not move, these boats can make speeds over the wind and they are proportionally bigger regarding weaker winds (the weaker the wind the bigger the boat speed over the wind speed).

This means that that this type of sailboats can be sailed with 3 or 4K winds and even so make an acceptable speed. The typical owners of these boats rarely use the engine except to charge batteries and to enter and leave ports because what they really like is sailing and cruising and not in a much bigger proportion, cruising.

I am not saying you don't like sailing, I am sure you do, what I am saying is that the owners of these type of boats like it more, so more that they will gladly give away some interior comfort while cruising to be able to enjoy a better sailing performance. That's why these boats are called performance sailing cruisers.

Each cruising boat that has a significant market demand has builders doing them and that is the case of the Catalina, that has not a better performance than for instance a Hanse or a Jeanneau, and that in European terms would be classified as a family boat, or the J122 that would be classified as a performance cruising boat.

Have a look at the nominees for the 2013 European boat on the year on its diverse categories. On the first movie you will have Luxury cruisers and Family cruisers. On that category you have: Hanse 415; Bavaria Vision 46, Delphia 31; RM 1260; Sun Odyssey 469

Europas Yachten des Jahres - Teil 1 - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin

Regarding the category of performance cruisers, the one that would include the J122, you have: Grand Soleil 39, Dufour 36 performance, Mc 34 Patton, Sly 38 and XP 50.

Europas Yachten des Jahres

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 12-14-2012 at 03:13 PM.
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Re: Catalina 40/J122

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Brian the feeling is reciprocaland the fact that I disagree, not with your choice, but with your thinking that what you like or style of cruising, applies to all, does not change that.

I know you think the J 122 is a terrible boat for cruising and on the other hand, I that don't race, some years back when the boat come to the market, did not only bought the boat because I had not the money.

Believe me, I am a cruiser, I cruise a lot, live several months for year on my sailing boat, have tried and sailed many types of sailboats and now pretty well what I want as a sailboat and it is a boat like the J122. The boat that I finally had choose (an used boat) is much more close to the J122 than to your boat, this one:

Yachts and Yachting Magazine

This year was the first I had cruised the boat and the average time between going to a marina for water was three weeks. For diesel maybe the double, I mean more than a month.

I know that this boat (or the J 122) would not suit you the same way the Catalina would not suit me. You have said why the J122 would not suit you and I can tell you why the Catalina or a family boat would not suit me: Boring in what regards sailing and with a insufficient capacity of sailing in light winds.

Off course I know this is not your opinion but that's why you can find in the market many different types of cruising boats for different types of cruisers that sail and cruise in different styles. They have almost all a thing in common:

All consider that his boat is the right one to cruise. From the ones that only consider very heavy steel boats, passing for the ones that only consider heavy fiberglass boats, to the ones to whom the offer of the predominant mass production builders (like Catalina) and ending up in the ones that prefer lighter and faster boats, being them monohull or multihull.

People are different as well as the cruising style or the importance they give to enjoy the boat while sailing and that's why there are so many types of cruising boats.

Regarding the J122 I can tell you (because I asked) that the standard water tankage (45G) can be raised to about the double if you want, and I think any cruiser that don't use the boat only locally will want that. The original diesel tankage is enough (35G) for that type of boat.

You have to consider that these type of boats needs about half the wind your boat needs to make some speed over the water. In fact with very weak winds these bots make wind and are faster than the wind so you have to take that in consideration in what regards needs of fuel or motoring.

Take a look at the boat Polar speed:

http://www.jowners.org/docs/J122%20Polar%20Chart.pdf

The boat with 6K wind can make 7K speed but most of all with weaker winds where your boat would almost not move, these boats can make speeds over the wind and they are proportionally bigger regarding weaker winds (the weaker the wind the bigger the boat speed over the wind speed).

This means that that this type of sailboats can be sailed with 3 or 4K winds and even so make an acceptable speed. The typical owners of these boats rarely use the engine except to charge batteries and to enter and leave ports because what they really like is sailing and cruising and not in a much bigger proportion, cruising.

I am not saying you don't like sailing, I am sure you do, what I am saying is that the owners of these type of boats like it more, so more that they will gladly give away some interior comfort while cruising to be able to enjoy a better sailing performance. That's why these boats are called performance sailing cruisers.

Each cruising boat that has a significant market demand has builders doing them and that is the case of the Catalina, that has not a better performance than for instance a Hanse or a Jeanneau, and that in European terms would be classified as a family boat, or the J122 that would be classified as a performance cruising boat.

Have a look at the nominees for the 2013 European boat on the year on its diverse categories. On the first movie you will have Luxury cruisers and Family cruisers. On that category you have: Hanse 415; Bavaria Vision 46, Delphia 31; RM 1260; Sun Odyssey 469

Europas Yachten des Jahres - Teil 1 - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin

Regarding the category of performance cruisers, the one that would include the J122, you have: Grand Soleil 39, Dufour 36 performance, Mc 34 Patton, Sly 38 and XP 50.

Europas Yachten des Jahres

Regards

Paulo
Agree Paulo! Not saying you are making the wrong decision at all. I am saying why I would not take that boat. That is why there is a different seat for every ***. Well, you know the phrase. Hey, if we all had the same likes and dislikes, there would only be one boat and life would be boring. Of course, that one boat would be a catalina 400 (HEHEHE... just kidding!!!).

Take care. Always appreciate your input.

Brian
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  #35  
Old 12-14-2012
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Re: Blue Jacket 40 (new racer/cruiser)

Brian - I admire you tremendously since you're out there "doing it", but respectfully I have to disagree about Catalina has a true dedicated performance line. Both of those models (when the 400 was in production) had roller furling mains, compression posts, fancy wing keels, winches that were a bit undersized, etc. When the 400 was in production, I believe its accepted PHRF rating was generally 110-120. Whereas a Beneteau First 40 is 60. I will say I commend Catalina to sticking with Lead keels, so the boats were definitely less "tender" than Beneteaus I've sailed on length for length...but racers love putting a rail in the water.

I will say I've read some statements from Catalina about their recent models aiming to bring performance back to their models, but 445 and 400 are squarely cruisers. I will say that I was surprised to see the C400 have a lower rating than the Beneteau Oceanis 40 (120 vs 130 something) since around here, Beneteau's generally compete in more competitive classes here than Catalina here in SE Florida.

But nowhere close to First series performance on an equivalent waterline.
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Re: Blue Jacket 40 (new racer/cruiser)

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Originally Posted by night0wl View Post
Brian - ... I will say I commend Catalina to sticking with Lead keels, so the boats were definitely less "tender" than Beneteaus I've sailed on length for length...but racers love putting a rail in the water.

...
Just a side comment to say that a lead keel means not necessarily that a boat is more or less tender. Lead is a great material to keels, specially if it used only in the bulb but there are much more factors: Draft, B/D, type of keel and beam are the more important.

A First 40 or a J122 will be more stiff than a Catalina 400 simply because they need to be more stiff to carry more sail and going faster. That does not mean that a First 40 will not put a rail in the water faster than a Catalina. That depends of the amount of sail area that is carried. Some boats, especially the narrower ones are designed to sail with more heel than a Catalina, but that does not make them necessarily more tender.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 12-14-2012 at 05:31 PM.
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Old 12-14-2012
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Re: Blue Jacket 40 (new racer/cruiser)

J122 is not your fathers Oldsmobile and is definately a fast cruising boat. We race on one a friend of mine has and it isnt like the smaller or older J which were all stripped out weight wise for speed with very little comfort. Stiff and moved in the light air of the Chesapeake in the summer where most other boats have turned on their engines. Inside accompanyments are more than adequate fot crusing

Brian I appreciate you and admire you cruising style and in many ways, but I have to tell you I never condidered the Catalina 40s even cruising racers. They are well made comfortable boats for cruising. Faster than many other of the heavy cruisers. Never the last in the harbor, but definately lagging behind say a Sabre 402. Good sea motion. They are a great all round boat. Especially for a family or with 5-6 people on board. My definition of the average cruiser is not a family though, It is a couple. So there is no need for those huge water tanks when we go cruising. No need for 2 heads. I admire you as you reasearched your choice well and got the boat which really gave you the best comfort/ speed/ tankage for the type of cruising you are doing. And you are living the dream too. I only hope I get to do half of what you are doing. And your proud of your boat...like we all are.

Like you said the reason their are so many varieties of cruisers is that there as so many different types. You have the massive 40,000 lb center cockpits to the lighter quicker 24,000 performers that kick ass in lighter winds and actually go to windward with precision. You have people whose boats are built like tanks to survive the big storms and the the peopke who make 25-30 miles more passage a day and are in before the storm arrives. You have people who want multiple berths and bunks like you because they have more people on board, then you have a lot of couples who dont need that sleeping space, but want storage space. So many different kinds of cruisers lead to so many different kinds of cruising boats.

Along with the J122s I would say the Sabre 40 footers is what my definition of a performance cruisers should look like. Tremendous quality fit and finish interiors. Sneaky quick. I dont get to see too many of the European boats like Paulo talks about so I have no way of comparing it to them.

As far as the Island packet Blue Jacket shedding the image of what the traditional Island Packet is, I would have to see it in action to beleive they are quick and can keep up with the Js, Sabres, Benne Firsts. I wish the C&Cs would get into this size range again. When you step down to the 38 foot range they are hard to beat and cruise well.

As a complete amateur in sailing when someone mentioned Island Packet and performance cruiser to me , my first though was oxymoron. The day I see a IP sail by inside a Sabre, Benne, J, C&C oing to windward I will be a beleiver.

It funny because Donna and I are looking for our last boat...a cruiser in the 40-43 range. And so unlike my past boat which has been a racer/ cruiser ( C&C 35 MKIII) which could keep up with the Js and the Sabres and Bennes ( Not JeffHs Farr though), we have narrowed it down to Masons ( 43/44), Bristol (41.1/45.5) or a Hans Christian Christina 43. We are looking for a tank...with tankage.

Dave
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Last edited by chef2sail; 12-14-2012 at 06:25 PM.
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Re: Blue Jacket 40 (new racer/cruiser)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
J122 is not your fathers Oldsmobile and is definately a fast cruising boat. We race on one a friend of mine has and it isnt like the smaller or older J which were all stripped out weight wise for speed with very little comfort. Stiff and moved in the light air of the Chesapeake in the summer where most other boats have turned on their engines. Inside accompanyments are more than adequate fot crusing

Brian I appreciate you and admire you cruising style and in many ways, but I have to tell you I never condidered the Catalina 40s even cruising racers. They are well made comfortable boats for cruising. Faster than many other of the heavy cruisers. Never the last in the harbor, but definately lagging behind say a Sabre 402. ...

Along with the J122s I would say the Sabre 40 footers is what my definition of a performance cruisers should look like. ...
Dave, I don't understand what you mean when you say that a Sabre 402 being considerable faster than a Catalina 400 or a Sabre 402 being a performance cruiser and the Catalina not. It seems to me that both boats have a very similar performance.

I looked at the numbers and ratios of both boats with the wing keel configuration, that is what Brian boat has and the numbers indicate a very similar performance and none of them as nothing to do with a performance of a J122 or any other real performance cruiser.

Here are the numbers:

SA/D :

Catalina 400-17.3......Sabre 402-17.9........J122-23

Displ/lenght :

Catalina 400-188.2 ......Sabre 402-227.2........J122-161

So if the Sail area displacement ratio is marginally better for the Sabre, is very close and both boats very far away from the J122.

Regarding the Displacement lenght ratio, it is substantially better on the Catalina and even so the one of Catalina is far away from the one of the J122.

Basically what is much better on the Catalina regarding the Sabre is the LWL. The Sabre is an older design and shows it clearly on the hull. Probably, even if both boats have a similar beam, the Catalina has a bigger hull form stability due to its more modern hull design (beam carried aft and a larger transom).

Considering that both boats have a very similar weight, RM is very important in what regards the boat power, or for other words the ability to carry more or less sail area. In that regard, as I have said both boats have approximately the same beam but probably the more modern Catalina hull can generate a bit more hull stability.

In what regards ballast the Catalina has a 39% B/D ratio and the Sabre 40% but has the Catalina has a bigger draft (5'4'' to 4'11'') probably the RM generated by both keels is very similar, I mean the boats probably have a CG very close one from the other.

All in all these boats should have a very similar performance and if I had to bet I would bet on a very marginal better performance from the Catalina due to his more modern hull design and bigger LWL.

Nobody has the ratings of both boats? Marty?

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 12-14-2012 at 10:35 PM.
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Re: Blue Jacket 40 (new racer/cruiser)

J122 has a phrf rating of 33
Sabre 40 is 75
Catalina 400 is 103
Case closed
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Re: Blue Jacket 40 (new racer/cruiser)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsaronson View Post
J122 has a phrf rating of 33
Sabre 40 is 75
Catalina 400 is 103
Case closed
The Sabre 40 is the 402?
and the Catalina 400 is the MKII?

I would say that if it is the case the Catalina has a very favorable rating and the Sabre 402 a very bad one

Regards

Paulo
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