Blue Jacket 40 (new racer/cruiser) - Page 5 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree17Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #41  
Old 12-14-2012
chef2sail's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 6,828
Thanks: 28
Thanked 53 Times in 49 Posts
Rep Power: 7
chef2sail will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to chef2sail
Re: Blue Jacket 40 (new racer/cruiser)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Dave, I don't understand what you mean when you say that a Sabre 402 being considerable faster than a Catalina 400 or a Sabre 402 being a performance cruiser and the Catalina not. It seems to me that both boats have a very similar performance.

I looked at the numbers and ratios of both boats with the wing keel configuration, that is what Brian boat has and the numbers indicate a very similar performance and none of them as nothing to do with a performance of a J122 or any other real performance cruiser.

Regards

Paulo
You seem to disagree with me in almost every post I make so no suprise..

Here is the phrf data which is fact, not opinion. This data makes the Sabre clearly a faster baot. It also clearly shows in terms of this data that the Catalina 400 would receive th same handicap to the Sabre as the Sabre would to the J 122 which you stated was a faster lightwind boat. t

Quote:
J 122- 30

SABRE 40- 75

CATALINA 400 WK- 120

From the US Sailing Website
Also from the US Sailing Website

Quote:
Performance Handicap Racing Fleet (PHRF) handicaps are based on the speed potential of the boat, determined as far as possible on observations of previous racing experiences. For new boats, handicappers typically compare the new boat to others that they are familiar with and references, if available, to designer's predictions, IMS or MORC handicaps. They look for boats of the same type, based on sail area to displacement ratios and then make adjustments based on the differences. In addition handicappers generally look to see if the boat has raced in another PHRF group. If using measurement rules such as MORC or IMS, care must be taken as measurement rules are type forming. If the boat wasn't designed to the rule, then the handicap likely will not be representative of the boat's potential. Since measurement rules evolve over the years, the age in the rule must also be considered.
http://offshore.ussailing.org/PHRF.htm
The first database, High/Low/Mean PHRF Handicaps as determined by USPHRF Affiliated Fleets

Then of course theres the practical knowledge and first hand experience, which I mentioned I have racing on one. The Sabre 40 windward performance angle is superior to the Catalinas and rivals the J Boats, in my experoience with both. One factor may be due to the extreme inboard jib tracks on the Sabre vs the Catalina. Sabres in the Unted States in opinions I have heard from others who race a fair amount are general considered racer/ cruisers.

Dave
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
___________________________
S/V Haleakala (Hawaiian for" House of the Sun")
C&C 35 MKIII Hull # 76
Parkville, Maryland
(photos by Joe McCary)
Charter member of the Chesapeake Lion posse

Our blog-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


“Sailing is just the bottom line, like adding up the score in bridge. My real interest is in the tremendous game of life.”- Dennis Conner

Last edited by chef2sail; 12-14-2012 at 11:14 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #42  
Old 12-14-2012
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,160
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Blue Jacket 40 (new racer/cruiser)

Dave, I was talking about the Sabre 402, the one that you compared with the Catalina 400. The ratios and numbers refers to those two boats. Obviously the Sabre 40 is a different boat from the 402, and a much faster one even if much more slower than the J122.

After some research I have find a file for the Sabre 402 that gives a PHRF of 102.

http://www.phrfsef.com/pages/2009/Endurance_28077.pdf

After looking specifically for the Catalina 400 MKII I found a PHRF of 117.

http://www.yachtscoring.com/boatdeta...Yacht_ID=31499

And for a J 122 a PHRF of 30

http://www.yachtscoring.com/boatdeta...Yacht_ID=27755

The PHRF of the Catalina 400MKII and the one from Sabre 402 are not very distant and have nothing to do with the one of the J 122 that is in a completely different level.

I have to say however that if these PHRF ratings have a close correspondence with boat performance, I am surprised. I would have expected an even more close performance, regarding Catalina 400 and Sabre 402.

Off course, numbers don't say it all, hull design is important and you don't see that on two dimensions, only the overall shape.


...

Last edited by PCP; 12-14-2012 at 11:47 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #43  
Old 12-15-2012
night0wl's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Fort Lauderdale
Posts: 1,397
Thanks: 0
Thanked 15 Times in 15 Posts
Rep Power: 9
night0wl is on a distinguished road
Re: Blue Jacket 40 (new racer/cruiser)

Just remember folks, ratings are for the applicable PHRF authority for your region. There is no "master" rating...it all depends on basic statistics of the boat, but then these ratings are changed/altered based on performance results. People do appeal their ratings all the time and can get adjustments.
__________________
S/V Jendai
Beneteau 343
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #44  
Old 12-15-2012
chef2sail's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 6,828
Thanks: 28
Thanked 53 Times in 49 Posts
Rep Power: 7
chef2sail will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to chef2sail
Re: Blue Jacket 40 (new racer/cruiser)

Quote:
Originally Posted by night0wl View Post
Just remember folks, ratings are for the applicable PHRF authority for your region. There is no "master" rating...it all depends on basic statistics of the boat, but then these ratings are changed/altered based on performance results. People do appeal their ratings all the time and can get adjustments.
So true. The US sailing aasociation PHRF ratings are the combination of all the sailing fleets in the US and it gives a high, low and mean rating ( which is the one i go by)

PHRF
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
___________________________
S/V Haleakala (Hawaiian for" House of the Sun")
C&C 35 MKIII Hull # 76
Parkville, Maryland
(photos by Joe McCary)
Charter member of the Chesapeake Lion posse

Our blog-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


“Sailing is just the bottom line, like adding up the score in bridge. My real interest is in the tremendous game of life.”- Dennis Conner
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #45  
Old 12-15-2012
chef2sail's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 6,828
Thanks: 28
Thanked 53 Times in 49 Posts
Rep Power: 7
chef2sail will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to chef2sail
Re: Blue Jacket 40 (new racer/cruiser)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Dave, I was talking about the Sabre 402, the one that you compared with the Catalina 400. The ratios and numbers refers to those two boats. Obviously the Sabre 40 is a different boat from the 402, and a much faster one even if much more slower than the J122.

Dave, I don't understand what you mean when you say that a Sabre 402 being considerable faster than a Catalina 400 or a Sabre 402 being a performance cruiser and the Catalina not. It seems to me that both boats have a very similar performance.

I looked at the numbers and ratios of both boats with the wing keel configuration, that is what Brian boat has and the numbers indicate a very similar performance and none of them as nothing to do with a performance of a J122 or any other real performance cruiser.
...
Do you think you can find me a picture or a listing of a Sabre 40 which is different from a 402. I dont remember Sabre making a 40 other than the 402 which I beleive it started production in 2003. I rememberr going on Sabre 402 Hull#1 at the Annapolis Boat Show. Up to that time they only made the 34, 36, 38 and 42. So possibly you made a mistake here.

The data you posted on the 102 PHRF rating is very suspect and is only accurate for the one boat Endurance in the SE region. As Nightowl posted these can change.

The data I posted was from the US Sailing Association and the data I posted is a combination of all the PHRF sailing fleets all over the United States and it gives a low, high as well as the mean score, which is universally used as the correct score. The scores in this list are the ones recognized as the true PHRF ratings and are the base levels and combination of many boats of the same size with and all with the same equipment on them.

PHRF

There are many things which an affect the ratings such as keel, sails, bl;ades on prop, etc in an individual race such as the data you posted from. The probablility exhists that the 1 boat you used, the Endurance was penalized due to some of these factors. I see it has a feathering prop and a 140% headsail for instance
http://www.phrfsef.com/pages/2009/Endurance_28077.pdf

Your data therefore is not a correct representation of most Sabre 402's PHRF rating and can not be used for purposes of comparison here. The Sabre 402 PHRF rating of 75 which I provided is the correct number.

A rating of PHRF 75 for the Sabre 402 while not nearly as fast as a J122 PHRF of 30, it is substantially faster than the Catalinas 400 PHRF of 120. This Sabre is rated as a true performance cruiser.

PHRF ratings are base on 1 second per point per mile. So a difference of 45 between the Sabre 402 and the Catalina would equate to a 45 second differential every mile. If you have a cruising day of lets say just 100 miles
The Sabre would finish 1 hour and 15 minutes ahead. Only a 12 mile triangular course ,,, a nine minute advantage. ( this of course is with similar crews sailing a simlar course)

I understand PHRF ratings are just one small tool to compare boat speed, and that is only one part of a performance cruiser designation, there are other factors which can be used also, but it is one of the most important factors.

Here are other comporable 40 footers PHRF ratings
Pearson 40- 117
Oday 40- 120
Newport 41- 114
Jenneau Sun Odessey 40- 114
Hunter 40- 120
Cal 40-117
Bennetau Oceanus 120
CS 40- 90
Hanse 400- 81
C&C 40-93

So you can see the Sabre 402 is not your normal cruiser.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
___________________________
S/V Haleakala (Hawaiian for" House of the Sun")
C&C 35 MKIII Hull # 76
Parkville, Maryland
(photos by Joe McCary)
Charter member of the Chesapeake Lion posse

Our blog-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


“Sailing is just the bottom line, like adding up the score in bridge. My real interest is in the tremendous game of life.”- Dennis Conner

Last edited by chef2sail; 12-15-2012 at 03:19 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #46  
Old 12-15-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: VA
Posts: 2,011
Thanks: 1
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 9
PalmettoSailor will become famous soon enough
Re: Blue Jacket 40 (new racer/cruiser)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Do you think you can find me a picture or a listing of a Sabre 40 which is different from a 402. I dont remember Sabre making a 40 other than the 402 which I beleive it started production in 2003. I rememberr going on Sabre 402 Hull#1 at the Annapolis Boat Show. Up to that time they only made the 34, 36, 38 and 42. So possibly you made a mistake here.

The data you posted on the 102 PHRF rating is very suspect and is only accurate for the one boat Endurance in the SE region. As Nightowl posted these can change.

The data I posted was from the US Sailing Association and the data I posted is a combination of all the PHRF sailing fleets all over the United States and it gives a low, high as well as the mean score, which is universally used as the correct score. The scores in this list are the ones recognized as the true PHRF ratings and are the base levels and combination of many boats of the same size with and all with the same equipment on them.

PHRF

There are many things which an affect the ratings such as keel, sails, bl;ades on prop, etc in an individual race such as the data you posted from. The probablility exhists that the 1 boat you used, the Endurance was penalized due to some of these factors. I see it has a feathering prop and a 140% headsail for instance
http://www.phrfsef.com/pages/2009/Endurance_28077.pdf

Your data therefore is not a correct representation of most Sabre 402's PHRF rating and can not be used for purposes of comparison here. The Sabre 402 PHRF rating of 75 which I provided is the correct number.

A rating of PHRF 75 for the Sabre 402 while not nearly as fast as a J122 PHRF of 30, it is substantially faster than the Catalinas 400 PHRF of 120. This Sabre is rated as a true performance cruiser.

PHRF ratings are base on 1 second per point per mile. So a difference of 45 between the Sabre 402 and the Catalina would equate to a 45 second differential every mile. If you have a cruising day of lets say just 100 miles
The Sabre would finish 1 hour and 15 minutes ahead. Only a 12 mile triangular course ,,, a nine minute advantage. ( this of course is with similar crews sailing a simlar course)

I understand PHRF ratings are just one small tool to compare boat speed, and that is only one part of a performance cruiser designation, there are other factors which can be used also, but it is one of the most important factors.

Here are other comporable 40 footers PHRF ratings
Pearson 40- 117
Oday 40- 120
Newport 41- 114
Jenneau Sun Odessey 40- 114
Hunter 40- 120
Cal 40-117
Bennetau Oceanus 120
CS 40- 90
Hanse 400- 81
C&C 40-93

So you can see the Sabre 402 is not your normal cruiser.
I don't for a minute believe a Sabre 402 will sail anywhere close to a 75 rating. That's the same base rating as a shoal draft C&C 121 which I have little doubt would do a horizon job on a Sabre 402.

I bet in the real world a Sabre 402 would fight to sail to a rating in the low 100's. That said, its a boat I would LOVE, love, love to own, but if beggers were choosers I'd take the 121 which to me is the correct balance of performance and cruising amenities.
__________________
PalmettoSailor
s/v Palmetto Moon
1991 Catalina 36
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #47  
Old 12-15-2012
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,160
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Blue Jacket 40 (new racer/cruiser)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
....

The data you posted on the 102 PHRF rating is very suspect and is only accurate for the one boat Endurance in the SE region. As Nightowl posted these can change.

...
There are many things which an affect the ratings such as keel, sails, bl;ades on prop, etc in an individual race such as the data you posted from. The probablility exhists that the 1 boat you used, the Endurance was penalized due to some of these factors. I see it has a feathering prop and a 140% headsail for instance
http://www.phrfsef.com/pages/2009/Endurance_28077.pdf

Your data therefore is not a correct representation of most Sabre 402's PHRF rating and can not be used for purposes of comparison here. The Sabre 402 PHRF rating of 75 which I provided is the correct number.

A rating of PHRF 75 for the Sabre 402 while not nearly as fast as a J122 PHRF of 30, it is substantially faster than the Catalinas 400 PHRF of 120. This Sabre is rated as a true performance cruiser.

..
The PHRF I had posted was from a boat with a low draft and a wing keel that was the boat I was comparing with Brian's Catalina 400 that has the same type of keel and the comparison is only valid to those two specific models with those keels.

http://www.phrfsef.com/pages/2009/Endurance_28077.pdf

It seems that the PHRF of the Sabre 402 can be very different since the boat could have a low draft wing keel (the boat I was talking about) and also a racing keel with a 3.3m draft. I found also keels with 2.6m Draft even if, by far, the most current is a cruising keel is the one with 1.7m draft.

BLOW'N AWAY 1997

ANEMONE 1998

Boat Directory SABRE CORPORATION, 40 feet

That explains the huge disparities of PHRF on the Sabrer 402.

Probably the lower handicap corresponds to a very deep racing keel while others correspond to cruising keels with a reasonable draft for cruising.

Here you have a more on the same site two diferent PHRF for a Sabre 402:

1 -Qing Long: With Spi - 95.....without Spi - 114

2 -Banshee: With Spi - 77.....without Spi - 97

PHRF-NB Ratings List 2000

Qing Long has a 1.7m keel

QING LONG 1999

Banshee is not on that directory but it has a deep keel keels otherwise the big difference in rating to the other Sabre 402 would not make sense.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 12-15-2012 at 09:39 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #48  
Old 12-15-2012
chef2sail's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 6,828
Thanks: 28
Thanked 53 Times in 49 Posts
Rep Power: 7
chef2sail will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to chef2sail
Re: Blue Jacket 40 (new racer/cruiser)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
The PHRF I had posted was from a boat with a low draft and a wing keel that was the boat I was comparing with Brian's Catalina 400 that has the same type of keel and the comparison is only valid to those two specific models with those keels.

http://www.phrfsef.com/pages/2009/Endurance_28077.pdf

It seems that the PHRF of the Sabre 402 can be very different since the boat could have a low draft wing keel (the boat I was talking about) and also a racing keel with a 3.3m draft. I found also keels with 2.6m Draft even if, by far, the most current is a cruising keel is the one with 1.7m draft.

BLOW'N AWAY 1997

ANEMONE 1998

Boat Directory SABRE CORPORATION, 40 feet

That explains the huge disparities of PHRF on the Sabrer 402.

Probably the lower handicap corresponds to a very deep racing keel while others correspond to cruising keels with a reasonable draft for cruising.

Here you have a more on the same site two diferent PHRF for a Sabre 402:

1 -Qing Long: With Spi - 95.....without Spi - 114

2 -Banshee: With Spi - 77.....without Spi - 97

PHRF-NB Ratings List 2000

Qing Long has a 1.7m keel

QING LONG 1999

Banshee is not on that directory but it has a deep keel keels otherwise the big difference in rating to the other Sabre 402 would not make sense.

Regards

Paulo
Thats why using the US Sailing PHRF figures as I did is more accurate. It takes this all into account as the figure used there for PHRF is not some one solitary boat, it is the mean of all of the 402 which are in all of the PHRF regional races in all of the United States.

It is the mean of many Sabre 402 sail boats vs the rating of one specific one. This takes into the account the anomolies of all of the boats. It works the same way for the Catalina 400 raing. There are some where its PHRF was 132, but in the averaging in The US sailing figures that was lost and a truer rating established.

When we race in a sanctioned event there are usually some penalty point accessed for add ons like folding props, etc.

Probably the lower handicap corresponds to a very deep racing keel while others correspond to cruising keels with a reasonable draft for cruising.-PCP

This is factored out as you are taking the mean of many boats The Sabre deep keel is 75 and the Sabre winged keel is 84. If any of the boats you are mentioning are sailing in a US Sailing PHRF fleet their data is averaged in and part of the data base to make up these figures.

It seems that the PHRF of the Sabre 402 can be very different since the boat could have a low draft wing keel (the boat I was talking about) and also a racing keel with a 3.3m draft. I found also keels with 2.6m Draft even if, by far, the most current is a cruising keel is the one with 1.7m draft.-PCP

Of course because every boat is duifferent. Thats why its important use a data base which includes all the PHRF ratings vs each individual boat.

Anyone who has done racing or even club racing knows the Sabres are much quicker all crews being equal than Catalinas in almost all wind speeds. Thats all I am saying. And this is what seperates them in the cruising class form the others like (Catalina, Hunter,Pearson, Cal, Etc.). They are a cut faster and then there is the J122 which is another cut faster and almost in a class by itself in cobining cmfort and speed.

None of this is meant to denigrate the Cataline 400 which is a great all round cruiser, well built and certainly quicker than many of the traditional cruisers out there. Dollar for dollar it is a great value in this size boat. Catalinas have great customer loyalty and their resale value amongst production boats is maintained better than most other. Yacht World has a Sabre 402, 2000 listed for $259,000 a similar year Catalina 400 2000 is listed at $160,000.

The topic here was performance cruisers and whether the Blue Jacket was one of them. I doubt it will be a J122, I doubt whether it will be a Sabre 402It would be a great feat for an IP it to even come in as well as previous Tim Jackett designed Tartan 40 which was PHRF rated at 108 or the new Tim Jackett designed Tartan 400 which launched last year as posted below. Interestingly Tim Jackett is the co designer of this Blue Jacket

Boat Review: Tartan 40 | Cruising Compass

This market will be a very difficult one for IP to break into with the Established quality performance cruisers already with good previous credentials and the traditional great build quality which IP has always bought matched against similar or even great build qualities of the two American built cruisers the Sabre 402 and the Tartan 400.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
___________________________
S/V Haleakala (Hawaiian for" House of the Sun")
C&C 35 MKIII Hull # 76
Parkville, Maryland
(photos by Joe McCary)
Charter member of the Chesapeake Lion posse

Our blog-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


“Sailing is just the bottom line, like adding up the score in bridge. My real interest is in the tremendous game of life.”- Dennis Conner
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #49  
Old 12-15-2012
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,160
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Blue Jacket 40 (new racer/cruiser)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
...

It is the mean of many Sabre 402 sail boats vs the rating of one specific one. This takes into the account the anomolies of all of the boats. It works the same way for the Catalina 400 raing. There are some where its PHRF was 132, but in the averaging in The US sailing figures that was lost and a truer rating established.

...
Anyone who has done racing or even club racing knows the Sabres are much quicker all crews being equal than Catalinas in almost all wind speeds. Thats all I am saying. And this is what seperates them in the cruising class form the others like (Catalina, Hunter,Pearson, Cal, Etc.). They are a cut faster and then there is the J122 which is another cut faster and almost in a class by itself in cobining cmfort and speed.

....
The topic here was performance cruisers and whether the Blue Jacket was one of them. I doubt it will be a J122, I doubt whether it will be a Sabre 402It would be a great feat for an IP it to even come in as well as previous Tim Jackett designed Tartan 40 which was PHRF rated at 108 or the new Tim Jackett designed Tartan 400 which launched last year as posted below. ....

Yes the point is that you were saying that the Catalina 400MKII is not a performance cruiser while the Sabre 402 is for you ".. the Sabre 40 footers is what my definition of a performance cruisers should look like" meaning that the Catalina 400MkII is not a performance cruiser and the Sabre 40.2 is a model in what regards performance cruisers. I don't agree with that, if, like I said, I am considering European standards.

After seeing the data I agree that the Sabre 40.2 is faster than the Catalina, but that difference even if meaningful does not make it a performance cruiser. From the beginning I was saying that I don't understand very well what in the US is called a performance cruiser since all modern boats seem to deserve that qualification. From the beginning I said that I was using European standards were the Catalina 400mkII or the Sabre 402 would not be called performance cruisers but family boats.

Take for instance the Hanse 400 that with spinnaker can have a PHRF lower than the lower one you found for the Sabre 40:

Hanse 400 PHRF - 69

On the same race there is racing a Sabre 402 with a 105 PHRF.

2010 Yachts & Participants | Lake Ontario 300


This is a faster boat than the Sabre 402, at least in this configuration, but that does not make it a performance cruiser by European Standards. In fact, the boat than substitutes the Hanse 400, the 415 is one of the nominated boats for the family cruising category (not on the performance cruising category).

That is what I am saying from the beginning and my only point: Neither the Catalina 400mkII or the Sabre 402 will qualify as performance cruisers by European Standards and their sailing performance is not very different (if compared with a true performance cruiser like the J122).

Regarding more accurate information about PHRF that seems to be a lot less precise than ORCI ratings these site is the one that seems to me to offer the better information.

http://www.sailingjoy.com/phrf

A Catalina 400 will have according US sailing source this PHRF ratings:

High -123...Low-102...Average-111

If it is a wing keel mode the PHRF will be 120

For a Sabre 402 they give different PHRF all having as source Us sailing:

SABRE 40-2 DK... High 63....Low 74....Average 69

and for the wing keel:

SABRE 40-2 WK...High 87....Low 81....Average 84

that in fact make a substantial difference for the Catalina but if the lowest configuration is 87 why can I find so many PHRF for the boat on the 104 area? All this seems pretty arbitrary.

As well as for the Hanse 400. They give :

HANSE 400-- High90... Low78....Average 81

and then have one racing with a 64 PHRF????

This does not make any sense. Anyone with a credible explanation?

Anyway the boats that in Europe are called performance cruisers have PHRF lower than the Hanse or the Sabre:

BENETEAU First 40.... 36.... 36... 36

Archambault A40RC Bulb Keel...36... 36...36


That data base has very few new boats so I cannot find any recent boats like Dehler 41 or the new Grand Soleil 39, Salona 41 or the Elan 410. I can only find some boats of the previous generation like the Elan 40:

ELAN 40...66....66.....66

It Is good to remember that the Elan 40 was replaced by the 410 and that one is going to be replaced this year by the Elan 400 and each one was faster than the predecessor.

I guess that when the Sabre 402 was designed, 16 years ago, deserved the domination of performance cruiser (always using European standards) not anymore.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 12-15-2012 at 12:25 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #50  
Old 12-15-2012
chef2sail's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 6,828
Thanks: 28
Thanked 53 Times in 49 Posts
Rep Power: 7
chef2sail will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to chef2sail
Re: Blue Jacket 40 (new racer/cruiser)

Quote:
PHRF handicaps are locally derived and may be different in other areas. There are several reasons why your boat would rate differently throughout the country. The difference may reflect real differences in relative boat speed (because of local sailing conditions) or merely reflect a difference in local sailing skills or in perception of the local handicappers. Variations to consider include sailing conditions like average wind speed and type of water sailed upon (i.e. ocean vs. lake) as well as the general make up of the local fleet. Since the handicaps of boats are adjusted to other boats within the same area, comparisons to other areas may not be relevant. Relative differences between boats typically provide a more accurate reflection than the absolute handicap assigned. In general, most areas tend to keep within the national handicap extremes but if a particular handicap does not seem correct for local conditions (such as a sport boat in mostly reaching conditions), remember that local PHRF organizations rate boats independently.US sailing Site
There are many factors that go into the PHRF ratings thats why the numbers are so diferent ( different by small degrees though). Thats why its important to take the mean average that the US Sailing site shows. ( It shows the high and low also). It is a far fairer way to ascertain the speed rating than taking one boat ourt of the crowd and assigning it a rating. The ratings are established also by racing. This is as fair a way as any of establishing the rating and fairer than taking any one boat out of the crowd.

I understand what you are saying about the Hanse.

The OP was concerning the Blue Jacket and how it would compete not really meant to compete with the European market, but comparitively against what is in exhistance in the American market.

The Sabre 402 has been replaced by the 426 with a similar PHRF for the winged keel of 81. In the US this is one of the most cmopetitive performance cruisers and exactley what the Blue Jacket from IP will be competing against as well as the Tartan 400.

Similarly the chief other modern competitors here in the US will be such as Caliber, Catalina, Tartan, Nennetau, Jennau,Hunter and Sabre. The price points will be wildly different with IP, Tartan, Calber and Sabre at least 40% more costly new and even eventually in the used market. The Catalina will rank next in terms of price and resale value. Personally I think IP will have a difficult time competeing with this particular model. It has a niche in the market already. And it isnt the performance cruiser.

Dave
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
___________________________
S/V Haleakala (Hawaiian for" House of the Sun")
C&C 35 MKIII Hull # 76
Parkville, Maryland
(photos by Joe McCary)
Charter member of the Chesapeake Lion posse

Our blog-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


“Sailing is just the bottom line, like adding up the score in bridge. My real interest is in the tremendous game of life.”- Dennis Conner
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Gill OC1 vs OC2 Ocean Racer Jacket granche1 Gear & Maintenance 2 12-03-2012 11:33 AM
I'd Like to Obtain -- Navy Blue Jacket Manual HighFly_27 Seamanship & Navigation 6 10-27-2012 02:22 AM
Paceship Blue Jacket 23 from the 60s?? hriehl1 Boat Review and Purchase Forum 3 07-26-2010 12:18 PM
Racer / Cruiser T34C Boat Review and Purchase Forum 34 07-18-2008 01:30 PM
racer/cruiser? railsunder Boat Review and Purchase Forum 1 11-26-2006 06:17 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:50 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.