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  #81  
Old 01-10-2013
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Re: Blue Jacket 40 (new racer/cruiser)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Not understanding why the Catalina 400 has a smaller LWL than the First 40 even if the overall hull length is slightly smaller (12.24m to 12.34m) is not understanding why modern hulls have a much bigger LWL. It has to do with bows much more vertical and with transoms finishing almost at the water line.

The hull of the Catalina 400 is an old one since the MkII has the same hull as the MKI and even so is already slightly better in what regards LWL than the even older hull from the Catalina 42 even if that one was a LOA 42cms bigger, that has a LWL of 36' 0" when you claim the 400 has 36' 6".
Paulo
Since our boat is on the hard for winter storage, this morning I went to our boat and measured the LWL. I dropped plumb bobs from the water mark at the bow and then at the stern. I measured the distance between the two points as 38 feet. That just about 11.6 m.

The way I see it, the Catalina specification of 36.5 feet is a dry weight. Loaded down, the actual LWL is longer. Sounds to me that Catalina is right on the mark with its LWL.

Perhaps somtimes you need to actually go look at these boats out of the water rather simply look at pictures from the web.. it will give you a biit different perspective.
Bryce

Last edited by BryceGTX; 01-10-2013 at 02:24 AM.
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  #82  
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Re: Blue Jacket 40 (new racer/cruiser)

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Even considering only righting moment do you have considered how much more RM that modern big draft keel will provide comparing with the Catalina one, knowing that the First has a bigger B/D ratio than the Catalina?
Paulo
We are comparing the shoal draft boats.. that means the First is only a foot deeper. As I said earlier.. it is doubtful the First produces any more RM with the keel because the Catalina gains 700 pounds in the weight plus another 400 pounds in the use of lead. Clearly the Catalina keel COM is well below the hull and arguably lower than the First.

Bryce
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  #83  
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Re: Blue Jacket 40 (new racer/cruiser)

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Regarding making Righting moment as the determining factor in what regards stiffness, independently of the boat weight, that would mean that a considerable bigger and heavier boat would be always more stiff than a lighter one and that is ridiculous.

Paulo
Keep in mind that the Catalina 400 was marketed as a racer cruiser when it came out in 1995. It has a radically different hull than the 387 and quite a bit different hull than the 42.

It represented a full bodied, wide beam hull that focused the hull mass deep in the center of the hull.

The First 40 as I pointed out earlier focuses on low drag at low angles of heel rather than stiffness. We see this in the side view of the hull as the depth of the hull is relatively flat. Such a design combined with a narrower waterline beam attempts to minimize the wetted surface. This would become clear if you had ever compared the front views.

On the other hand, the Catalina hull side view concentrates the depth of the hull near the midship. This lowers the CG. Clearly the combination of lower CG and large water line area results in a very stiff boat at low angles of heel.

The First hull sides have deadrise that creates an increasinly larger RM once the boat starts to heel beyond perhaps 15 degrees.

On the other hand, the Catalina 400 hull sides are more rounded resulting in a more progressive and easier to manage increase in RM.

So we see, it is not really the weight of the Catalina 400 that results in its stiffness at low heel angles, but more so its hull design.

The Catalina 400 is nothing like the hull you are apparently expecting. I encourage you to see these two boats out of the water to get a better understanding.
Bryce

Last edited by BryceGTX; 01-10-2013 at 03:15 AM.
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  #84  
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Re: Blue Jacket 40 (new racer/cruiser)

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I know that this is internet but even so how it is possible to even be discussing this, I mean that a Catalina 400 is more stiff than a First 40?
Paulo
I have yet to hear a convincing argument from you that states otherwise. You need to keep in mind that the Catalina 400 is not your run of the mill deep-v rough water boat.

Clearly your top view shows the Catalina 400 much more full bodied than the First 40 (ignoring for the moment this does not represent waterline area). Such a boat creates more righting moment.
Bryce

Last edited by BryceGTX; 01-10-2013 at 03:14 AM.
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  #85  
Old 01-12-2013
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Re: Blue Jacket 40 (new racer/cruiser)

I was enjoying this thread, and then it turned into The Bryce Show with six posts in a row. Interest lost.
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  #86  
Old 01-12-2013
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Re: Blue Jacket 40 (new racer/cruiser)

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Originally Posted by BryceGTX View Post
I have yet to hear a convincing argument from you that states otherwise. You need to keep in mind that the Catalina 400 is not your run of the mill deep-v rough water boat.

Clearly your top view shows the Catalina 400 much more full bodied than the First 40 (ignoring for the moment this does not represent waterline area). Such a boat creates more righting moment.
Bryce
Come on guys...Catalina..Racer/ Cruiser

They are good boats, but racer cruisers. The 40 Cat has a difficult time with our C&C 235MKIII let alone an older 40 C&C or a newer C&C115. It lags behind a Sabre 38 and a J122. And compared to a Farr 40 give me a break.

These are actual on the water races and comparisons not some mock drawing, specs in a book, or bragging by the manufacturer or measurements on the hard.

Cat 40 are good family cruising boats which are not slow. They are better made than most production boats and retain their value. They are racers compared to Hunters, Tayanas, and IPS, but lets not fool ourselves here.

I am in no way denigrating them and pride of what we own is imprtant afterall thats why we chose it.

I have never met a Catalina which could out point us a J122 or a Sabre 40 or 38.
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  #87  
Old 01-14-2013
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Re: Blue Jacket 40 (new racer/cruiser)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Come on guys...Catalina..Racer/ Cruiser

They are good boats, but racer cruisers. The 40 Cat has a difficult time with our C&C 235MKIII let alone an older 40 C&C or a newer C&C115. It lags behind a Sabre 38 and a J122. And compared to a Farr 40 give me a break.

These are actual on the water races and comparisons not some mock drawing, specs in a book, or bragging by the manufacturer or measurements on the hard.

Cat 40 are good family cruising boats which are not slow. They are better made than most production boats and retain their value. They are racers compared to Hunters, Tayanas, and IPS, but lets not fool ourselves here.

I am in no way denigrating them and pride of what we own is imprtant afterall thats why we chose it.

I have never met a Catalina which could out point us a J122 or a Sabre 40 or 38.
Agree for the most part. I certainly would not call this boat a racer. She does well. SHe regularly gets over hull speed (even us as loaded down cruisers). SHe is the most sure footed boat I have ever sailed. It is comfortable down below with a nice proportion of space and lots of teak, etc. But a racer? Nah. Not in my perception. My issue is that for what I consider a racer (and the Sabre does not fall into that either or the C&C), I would't cruise on it. Too narrow beam, too modest accomodations, I often don't like the way the cockpit lines are run, etc. It's a different animal. I guess some might consider cruising on a J122 or some of the Firsts, but I wouldn't. But those are my opinions, and i understand that others have a completely different view of what is ideal. But I will tell you this as a long time live aboard and cruiser, the boats I see being used the most (and live aboards for sure) are the Hunters, Benes, and Catalinas. It's not just because they are the most populous of boats, it is because the boats are COMFORTABLE. I often see the Valiants ready to go around the world and never leave the dock, or come back and the owners go off to their homes to stretch out. The Tayana 42 really is a pretty comfortable boat, but cripes that thing is slower than molasses. I think the C&C's are ok, but for our type of cruising, I think the C400 is the best. If I was going to trade up out of this boat and keep it under 300k, I would probably look at a Sabre. It would be pretty high on my list. But I have a LOT of the same issues with the Sabre as I do the Benehuntalinas. Over 300-500k, I would probably be looking hard at a HR (my wife's favorite) or a Hylas 54 (mine). Over 500k, I am not sure I would get a sailboat at all. I would probably get a Nordhavn, which I think are some of the finest vessels in the world. If I stuck to sail, it would likely be a Taswell (a boat I have spent some time on too).

But geez, if money is not an object, these boats are great to talk about. But I don't know a lot of people that have that kind of disposable income sitting around. Instead, with only a few exceptions, these boats are bought by people with well-paying jobs and they sit in a marina except for the weekends or they have to save most of their lives and cannot enjoy them until they are 6x/7x years old. I could do that, and almost did, actually. Now I am glad it didn't work out or I might still be in my f/t career wishing I could see my perfect yacht instead of being 41 YO, cruising with my kids, on a great boat that will go anywhere I want to (AND OUTRUNNING MOST OF YOU DOING IT!!!!)

HEHE!

Brian
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  #88  
Old 01-14-2013
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Re: Blue Jacket 40 (new racer/cruiser)

PHRF rating for NE.
PHRF New England - Handicapping - Base Handicaps

Catalina 400 = 102
Bene First 40 = 36

End of discussion.
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  #89  
Old 01-14-2013
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Re: Blue Jacket 40 (new racer/cruiser)

Quote:
Originally Posted by zz4gta View Post
PHRF rating for NE.
PHRF New England - Handicapping - Base Handicaps

Catalina 400 = 102
Bene First 40 = 36

End of discussion.
No my friend, you are not correct. We are talking about a wing keel version so it will be:

Catalina 400WK - 120

Bene First - 36

Regards

Paulo
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Old 01-14-2013
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Re: Blue Jacket 40 (new racer/cruiser)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
Agree for the most part. I certainly would not call this boat a racer. She does well. SHe regularly gets over hull speed (even us as loaded down cruisers). SHe is the most sure footed boat I have ever sailed. It is comfortable down below with a nice proportion of space and lots of teak, etc. But a racer? Nah. Not in my perception. My issue is that for what I consider a racer (and the Sabre does not fall into that either or the C&C), I would't cruise on it. Too narrow beam, too modest accomodations, I often don't like the way the cockpit lines are run, etc. It's a different animal. I guess some might consider cruising on a J122 or some of the Firsts, but I wouldn't. But those are my opinions, and i understand that others have a completely different view of what is ideal. But I will tell you this as a long time live aboard and cruiser, the boats I see being used the most (and live aboards for sure) are the Hunters, Benes, and Catalinas. It's not just because they are the most populous of boats, it is because the boats are COMFORTABLE. I often see the Valiants ready to go around the world and never leave the dock, or come back and the owners go off to their homes to stretch out. The Tayana 42 really is a pretty comfortable boat, but cripes that thing is slower than molasses. I think the C&C's are ok, but for our type of cruising, I think the C400 is the best. If I was going to trade up out of this boat and keep it under 300k, I would probably look at a Sabre. It would be pretty high on my list. But I have a LOT of the same issues with the Sabre as I do the Benehuntalinas. Over 300-500k, I would probably be looking hard at a HR (my wife's favorite) or a Hylas 54 (mine). Over 500k, I am not sure I would get a sailboat at all. I would probably get a Nordhavn, which I think are some of the finest vessels in the world. If I stuck to sail, it would likely be a Taswell (a boat I have spent some time on too).

But geez, if money is not an object, these boats are great to talk about. But I don't know a lot of people that have that kind of disposable income sitting around. Instead, with only a few exceptions, these boats are bought by people with well-paying jobs and they sit in a marina except for the weekends or they have to save most of their lives and cannot enjoy them until they are 6x/7x years old. I could do that, and almost did, actually. Now I am glad it didn't work out or I might still be in my f/t career wishing I could see my perfect yacht instead of being 41 YO, cruising with my kids, on a great boat that will go anywhere I want to (AND OUTRUNNING MOST OF YOU DOING IT!!!!)

HEHE!

Brian
Yes I think your boat is a perfect cruiser for a family. It has the large amount of room in the cabin areas, and cockpit which are necessary for a group of people to be comfortable. It reflects in how you chooose a vessel when you are looking to carry 5 people comdortably then if there are only 2 most of the time.

Thats probably where most of the difference is in what you and I view when we are looking at cruising boats. Multiple berthing areas as well as heads are something which is not necessary to start. Storage is much more important.

When you look at the Moodys, Masons, HRs thats one of the appartent difference IMHO. Ample tankage. Large areas to work on the engine etc.

Like you I love the Hylas, Taswell, Moodys and some of them are as affordable yet a little older than a Newer Catalina, Hunter, or Bene
Thats where you ave to decide whether the tradeoff is worth it. The Cat/ Hunter/ Benne designs are not what I look for as volume is not important to me. Nice rich teak and mahongany wood and joinery work, replace laminate.

The modern C&C and J122 is a great boat for 2, but probaly doesnt envison your crew of 5. They are more racers also as are some of the boats Paulo often mentioned. You Cat is more in the middle, a comfortable, quick cruiser which is built to accomadate a family. We havent even looked at boats like the Pacific Seacrafy and others similar which are bulletprooof for real long range cruising, but not built for straight line speed.

If I had a family and wanted to cruise comfortably and safely I probably would choose as you did. I admire you teaching them and taking them. They are getting quite and education. You are not the normal profile of a cruuiser though. Most are parties of two I think.

We are different and my kids are grown and not comming. I may represent more of what the majority of the cruisers look like. Thats why you may see such a disparity of vessels cruising and the same disparity in what people want in their vessel. It seems as though seakindness is the priooity as opposed to speed. Storage and tankage is important, Well made accessable systems are important. Weight seems to be important due to the areas you sail in. Sail configuations seems to be important as you need to be able to sail in the trades for long periods. Open space gives way to safe space both above and below deck. Safe gunwhales are a factor.

My question is if it was just you and your wife at 55 getting you final boat which you expected to last 25 years and you were going cruising, but not selling your land based home to live aboard, how would that affect what you buy and you had $250,000 total to spend. ( Maybe I should start a new thread)

dave
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