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  #11  
Old 01-14-2013
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Re: No Sea Trial

If you willing to open your books, you should certainly be willing to leave a deposit.

Further, most folks don't have an audited financial statement at hand, or a tax assessment handy, and few would want to divulge that info to a broker, but most folks keep their credit cards or chequebook with them.

And, quite frankly, if i was a broker, i'd still want a deposit.
Bernie Madoff had a pretty good set of financials to show prospective clients.
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  #12  
Old 01-14-2013
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Re: No Sea Trial

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post

As a buyer, I passed up one boat I inspected with a broker who would not let me start the engine and another who was to busy to schedule me in. Others will treat you the way you allow them to. Stand up for yourself buyers.
I agree, one should stand up for oneself.
You passed on two boats because tow brokers didn't do their jobs. As a seller, if i knew that a broker didn't have time to show my boat to a prospect, and/or wouldn't demonstrate systems, i'd be finding a new broker.
On this, we agree.

But if you come into the process from an adversarial standpoint, questioning every step of the process, balking at standard terms, and essentially coming across as "anti-broker, I am in control, you can't tell me what to do, you're all over paid lazy crooks" a funny thing happens.
You get exactly what you want.
You no longer have to deal with brokers.
Because none will deal with you.

Just as a buyer may feel that he/she shouldn't have to put down a deposit, a broker is under no obligation to deal with a difficult and unpleasant prospects.
General rule of thumb- those who are grinding, controlling, arrogant, condescending a-holes while shopping remain grinding, controlling, arrogant, condescending a-holes after the deal is done. in fact, with these jerks the deal is often never completely done, because they keep coming back with one more demand, one more condition, one more threat, for months after they have taken possession.
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  #13  
Old 01-14-2013
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Re: No Sea Trial

Actually, my transaction was quite simple. Submitted written list of questions and proposed contract to seller. Seller answered questions in writing and approved proposed contract. Inspection by me and sail with owner. Signed contract with deposit on the spot. Survey by marine surveyor. Re-negotiate contract for unseen deficiency revealed by survey. Closing with cash, no problems. Sail away to new marina. Seller buys bigger boat he wants. Everyone is happy.

The seller was a reasonable man, also a lawyer. We were both familiar with using contracts and negotiating. We both recognized motivation on the other's part and appreciated having someone who knew what he was doing and who also wanted to complete the deal. We both got what we wanted out of the transaction. Win-win situation with no demanding and/or deceptive broker (pretending to be an expert) in the middle.

Last edited by jameswilson29; 01-14-2013 at 10:12 AM.
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Old 01-14-2013
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Re: No Sea Trial

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
Actually, my transaction was quite simple. Submitted written list of questions and proposed contract to seller. Seller answered questions in writing and approved proposed contract. Inspection by me and sail with owner. Signed contract with deposit on the spot. Survey by marine surveyor. Re-negotiate contract for unseen deficiency revealed by survey. Closing with cash, no problems. Sail away to new marina. Seller buys bigger boat he wants. Everyone is happy.

The seller was a reasonable man, also a lawyer. We were both familiar with using contracts and negotiating. We both recognized motivation on the other's part and appreciated having someone who knew what he was doing and who also wanted to complete the deal. We both got what we wanted out of the transaction. Win-win situation with no demanding and/or deceptive broker (pretending to be an expert) in the middle.
How did you find the boat?
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  #15  
Old 01-14-2013
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Re: No Sea Trial

I searched on yachtworld.com, sailboatlistings.com, eBay and Craigslist. I contacted various sellers and 3 brokers from all different sources. I found my boat on Craigslist. The description and photos were accurate, the ad language was realistic and appropriate, and I felt comfortable with the transaction from the start.

Some of the other ads scream "deceptive seller" from the start. Some of the broker ads scream "let me bullsheet you" from the start. I want to deal with someone who is direct and upright. I am direct and upright. All boats have problems. It is o.k. to have differences or to disagree. Don't tell me I will be buying a perfect boat or show me blurry photos with throw pillows, placemats and wine glasses in place. I was not a tire kicker and I was not going to waste my time; I also was not going to waste the seller's time. The seller shared his survey with me and showed me some recommendations he had corrected.
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Last edited by jameswilson29; 01-14-2013 at 10:52 AM.
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  #16  
Old 01-14-2013
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Re: No Sea Trial

Bottom line will be that you do not get yourself involved in a transaction you do not feel comfortable with. And a false sense of security does not count.

Yacht brokers, like real estate agents, have no special powers. They are not lawyers. They will do nothing to protect you. They dish out legalese and pass out pre-printed forms as if... But alas no.

How many real estate agents and yacht brokers will advise you NOT to use a lawyer? I dare say the majority.

Now that I said my peace, there are a few good brokers out there. You will know when you come across one.

And when you hand over a deposit check for several thousand dollars don't expect it to be a magic boomerang check that will find it's way back to you the second you ask for it. Be prepared for a fight.

Caveat emptor
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Old 01-14-2013
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Re: No Sea Trial

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
Actually, my transaction was quite simple. Submitted written list of questions and proposed contract to seller. Seller answered questions in writing and approved proposed contract. Inspection by me and sail with owner. Signed contract with deposit on the spot. Survey by marine surveyor. Re-negotiate contract for unseen deficiency revealed by survey. Closing with cash, no problems. Sail away to new marina. Seller buys bigger boat he wants. Everyone is happy.

The seller was a reasonable man, also a lawyer. We were both familiar with using contracts and negotiating. We both recognized motivation on the other's part and appreciated having someone who knew what he was doing and who also wanted to complete the deal. We both got what we wanted out of the transaction. Win-win situation with no demanding and/or deceptive broker (pretending to be an expert) in the middle.
I've had two good experiences buying boats in recent years. The first was similar to yours, buying directly from the owner (neither of us were lawyers however). The second (recent) sale was handled by a broker and I can't say enough good things about the broker. He called me shortly after the survey began (I wasn't able to get there for the start) and told me they found high moisture readings in the deck and asked me if I wanted to go ahead with the rest of the survey. I told him that I did, but wanted to hold off on the sea trial until someone from my marina could provide an estimate for the deck repair. The broker agreed, contacted the owner, who also agreed, and we proceeded.

But there's more. After getting the deck inspected and receiving the estimate for the work, the broker felt the estimate was too low (i.e., he thought the damage was more severe). He contacted the yard, arranged for them to come out for a second look and revised estimate, which we got. It was higher than the first (the guy who I wanted to look at the boat was away and wasn't able to do the first estimate).

I don't know how common this kind of thing is among brokers, but in this case this particular broker definitely saved me a decent amount of money. The survey also turned up some less serious issues and the broker arranged for the owner to address those prior to completing the sale.

So I guess my basic point is, there are good brokers around.
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  #18  
Old 01-14-2013
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Re: No Sea Trial

No, willy, a boat broker is not a roller skating rink, you can't just go out and play. The purpose of a sea trial is not to figure out whether a boat sails nicely, but to find out if there are any problems which you can't detect at the dock, such as an engine that smokes under load, overheats, or instruments that black out when heeled on starboard tack.

You are expected to go out and beg, borrow, steal, charter, crew on other boats to figure out what handles nicely, because no sea trial will really tell you that anyway. Not unless you stay out long enough to experience two-knot calms and eight-foot seas with 40 knots all in the same say.

She's asking for your offer and deposit because that eliminate the tire kickers. Unlike BaskinRobbins, boat brokers don't give out free samples. Sea trials mean a major investment of time and money (and risks, if you break the boat or run it aground or hit something) so they're just not done before there's money on the table.
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  #19  
Old 01-14-2013
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Re: No Sea Trial

You must be able to learn something from a sea trial. I have no problem compensating someone for their time if I request a sea trial. I would think $200 would be appropriate for an hour on the water. I would hope that would be enough to pre-qualify me.
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  #20  
Old 01-14-2013
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Re: No Sea Trial

To the OP, by the way, to correct the terminology in your first post: the owner is the seller; the broker is not the seller. The broker is merely an agent for the seller. I misunderstood your first post to mean the owner was a broker.

Last edited by jameswilson29; 01-14-2013 at 12:59 PM.
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