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  #41  
Old 01-16-2013
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Re: Last Boat- Time to look at the end game Cruising Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Dave, if we take out these little phrases: 2Sailplan including either two head furlers or detachable forestay...Sailing abiliity phrf above 50% of similar boats to windward", we could be talking about a motor boat.

I guess that basically in what regards cruising one of the main points is how much sailing versus motoring you are going to do and that is an important point since diesel is expensive and it will be more in the future. I guess this should be the starting point for someone that wants a sailboat for cruising and just not to live in it and I know it would not be your case.

Basically if you want to follow the trade winds almost any boat will do. If not and you want more flexibility your choice will be a lot narrow and the difference to boats that actually can sail with 6K winds will be huge in what regards sailing time versus motoring. I am not talking about speed, just sailing instead of motoring.

Another point I have doubts is this one: "24000 lbs or more" I guess it relates with stability and motion comfort but the weight, even if it counts for stability (and motion comfort) is not the only factor and you can have boats with substantial less weight with a better stability than one with that weight.

And finaly I am quite sure this is not a good idea: "I am not afraid of older boats if in good condition as good boats last 60 years at least."...sure this will not be important if you just live in the boat, sail it locally and with good weather but I think you want a bluewater boat and will sail it plenty offshore. Putting an old boat in a sailing condition of a 5 year old boat will coast you a lot and you will have a maintenance issues all the time, not meaning problems but always things to take care and substitute.

A car can also last more than 60 years, the reason you dump them is because their performance is outdated and because it would cost a fortune maintaining it in perfect working order.

About your long list nobody never gets exactly what he wants. The best is to make a priority list, some things will only be preferences other will be deal breakers...and regarding that, what performance you would want on your sailing boat, not regarding speed but regarding the ability to sail with light winds would be an important one because this will define the type of sailingboat.

I hope this helps.

Regards

Paulo
You are right, I think I mentioned that I wouldnt be able to get everything...boats are often tradeoffs.

No motorboat for me We like to sail and do so in many different conditions

As an example one of the boats I like the Saga 43 has a great sailplan. A furled genoa for downhill sailing and a smaller furled sail for upwind. No self tacvking feature as I dont like that.

I would envision we would be doing a lot of trade sailing in the time we were in that part of time we were were on the boat, and conversely when we came back north we spend a lot more time close hauled and heading to windward so I want a boat which can do that effectively. ( This rules out brands like IP for me)

There are only two of us so the interior space needs to be comfortable, but not as wide open extensive as a Catalina, Hunter.

I understand what you say about the new vs old issue., I find very few newer boats that looks to me ( its only me) the way the older designs do. I know there have been many advances in hull design and I am obviously not going for that necessarily. ( Sure I want the Outbound but cant afford it). As far as maintainenece and replacement. That is a forever thing. Many of my friends are starting to replace stuff in their 12 year old boats which I replaced in the last few years. They may have newer boats, but my equipment is newer in many ways now. I see value in some of the classic car designs of years past and dont just beleive in throwing them away.

dave
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Last edited by chef2sail; 01-16-2013 at 02:09 PM.
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  #42  
Old 01-16-2013
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Re: Last Boat- Time to look at the end game Cruising Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by wingNwing View Post
My dock neighbor is selling his passport 40 that seems to meet many of your criteria and is comfortably in your price point: 1989 Passport 40 AC Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com He's generally cared for the boat well, selling due to health issues.

if you look closely at one of the pix of the boat in its slip, you'll see us next door under the shrink wrap
Looks like a well care for boat but it does seem a bit pricey when compared to others? I still love these boats and I believe it fits many of c2s criteria?

40 -44 ft is a great size IMO for a couple and this boat with the additional aft stateroom would accommodate nicely the occasional guest. (hint hint)

This kinda nails it doesn't it:
"The design emphasis of this traditional sailing sloop is on liveaboard comfort without compromising on sailing ability or safety at sea. The Passport 40 is laid out with this in mind. Interior space is prioritized and allocated according to use. This approach to design resulted in a yacht of exceptional comfort and livability."

That startboard settee is huge! But worthy of a nice sea berth with a lee cloth. Comfortable dedicated nav station. Well designed cockpit ( I am partial to the T shape cockpits ) 5' +/- draft still reasonable for the bay. 56' mast height, good enough for the ICW? New galley counter tops, no problem. I'm guessing you would want to redo the house bank and the charging options to include solar & wind?

Just say'in

Just noticed, its not a cutter rig? Um maybe a deal breaker? LOL
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Last edited by T37Chef; 01-16-2013 at 03:32 PM.
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  #43  
Old 01-16-2013
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Re: Last Boat- Time to look at the end game Cruising Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Protected Rudder
No full keel
No volvo engine
Sailplan including either two head furlers or detachable forestay
V berth and at least a double aft berth
Safe U shaped galley
24000 lbs or more
Lead Keel
AC and genset ( or room for one)
Espar heater
Comfortable salon plan for 2- no curved settes
Foreward facing Nav station
Top and front facing refeer and freezer
2 propane lockers
Davits or avaialability to install them
55 or greater HP engine no more than 2500 hrs
Dual racor filtering
Good windlass
Solar Panels
720 ah elctrical dc
Good inverter and battery monitor- can be added
Good charplotter- can be added
hearty autopilot- can be added
Good engine acccess on all sides
40 gallon holding tank with Y valve and mascerator
At least 8 opening ports
At least 4 opening hatches
Wood not lalminate interior
Little wood trim topside
Sailing abiliity phrf abive 50% of similar boats to windward
Draft 6 ft
Mast height less than 63 feet

Thats a lot of specs....hahha I am picky thats what has taken me so long.

It will only be my wife and I so only one head is fine. Salon must be comfortable for hanginkg out and reading in. Could be barrel chairs like older Bristols

The boats that have interested us have been Mason 44, Hans Chrisian Christina 43, bistol 41.1 and 45.5. Saga 43. But maybe there are others out there thats why I am asking. I am not afraid of older boats if in good condition as good boats last 60 years at least.
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi..._id=64851&url=

THe Tatoosh. It seems to be a faster boat than the typical long distance cruiser. She at least will get out of her way somewhat. I think it has everything you want... except maybe the heater. We dont do a lot of that down here.

THis vessel is in our marina. I know the broker and the privious owner and have contacts to the owner before this. The previous owner got out of this boat after cruising the carrib, and bought a 2002 Beneteau 473 which is a awesome boat but apparently does not fit many of your requirements (but she is ffffaaasssttt!!!). That is why he changed boats - he likes to race and push the limits.

I do know this boat has had massive refits. It is half your budget, and in my opinion, worth a lot more than asking. I have not been down below, but have walked by her many times. For those that do not know the Tatoosh, she is a Bob Perry designed boat, with a bit more empahsis to speed. SHe is made in the Ta Shing yard in Taiwan, which is generally considered the finest yard there (and in some opinions, anywhere). This is the yard where they build the Mason, Taswells, Nordhavns, etc... which I think are some of the finest boats in the world (production).

I know the broker too and discussed this boat with him for another interested buyer. Of course Dave, you won't like the broker. He was the VP of Morgan (where my boat was built) and LOVES the C400. But Joe is a straight shooter and has a good rep around here.

Is this the boat I would buy for your purpose? Nope. But I guess you already know that. No matter - it's not what I like that counts, it is what you and the Mrs. Chef like.

Brian

PS WingnWing: Why the cover? You try to stop bird poopings? Can't be for any other reason I can envision (hehehehe.... 81 here today).
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Last edited by Cruisingdad; 01-16-2013 at 03:48 PM.
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  #44  
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Re: Last Boat- Time to look at the end game Cruising Boat

You know one thing I am seeing is lots of Robert Perry designed boats. I think his style of designs seem to fit most of your desires. I don't think he has ever designed a bad boat.
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  #45  
Old 01-16-2013
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Re: Last Boat- Time to look at the end game Cruising Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi..._id=64851&url=

THe Tatoosh. It seems to be a faster boat than the typical long distance cruiser. She at least will get out of her way somewhat. I think it has everything you want... except maybe the heater. We dont do a lot of that down here.

THis vessel is in our marina. I know the broker and the privious owner and have contacts to the owner before this. The previous owner got out of this boat after cruising the carrib, and bought a 2002 Beneteau 473 which is a awesome boat but apparently does not fit many of your requirements (but she is ffffaaasssttt!!!). That is why he changed boats - he likes to race and push the limits.

I do know this boat has had massive refits. It is half your budget, and in my opinion, worth a lot more than asking. I have not been down below, but have walked by her many times. For those that do not know the Tatoosh, she is a Bob Perry designed boat, with a bit more empahsis to speed. SHe is made in the Ta Shing yard in Taiwan, which is generally considered the finest yard there (and in some opinions, anywhere). This is the yard where they build the Mason, Taswells, Nordhavns, etc... which I think are some of the finest boats in the world (production).

I know the broker too and discussed this boat with him for another interested buyer. Of course Dave, you won't like the broker. He was the VP of Morgan (where my boat was built) and LOVES the C400. But Joe is a straight shooter and has a good rep around here.

Is this the boat I would buy for your purpose? Nope. But I guess you already know that. No matter - it's not what I like that counts, it is what you and the Mrs. Chef like.

Brian

PS WingnWing: Why the cover? You try to stop bird poopings? Can't be for any other reason I can envision (hehehehe.... 81 here today).
Brian,

Interesting boat. I love Perry designed boats and used to own one and Islander 28. One of the reasons I like the Masons is where the are made ( the shipyard). This one looks in OK condition. Does it have a detachable forestay or room for one? Can you PM the brokers name and number. I wont hold it against him he knows you
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Re: Last Boat- Time to look at the end game Cruising Boat

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Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
OK its the bottom of the ninth. Kids are grown...end of the careers is in site. You are approaching 60. You are looking for your very last sailboat. You have $250,000 to spend for the total ( outfitting included).

The cruising will be just you and your wife and the furthest you may go is 4-5 months at a time and to the Galapagos Islands from Annapolis Maryland. So north to Canada and South to Panama is the range. returning home to the Chesapeake most springs.

You have sailed for 30 years in proressively larger keel boats and have a older 35ft racer/ cruiser. You like performace sailing, but are willing to sacrifice some of the racing speed for comfort, but do not want to fall less than the 50% mark in terms of speed. You have done plenty of blue water sailing , but predominatly are a coastal cruiser
What would you buy and why?
Bermuda 40

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  #47  
Old 01-16-2013
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Re: Last Boat- Time to look at the end game Cruising Boat

Chef, I have somewhere in the neighborhood of 5,000nm on a Nordic 44. I’ve been told that they are the “Sabre” of the west coast and each boat contains a large amount of customization in the interior. I have mixed opinions on the usefulness of a skeg hung rudder. The skeg is mounted in the same fashion as a fin keel (un-encapsulated). The bolt pattern is only about two inches between lateral bolts which is insufficient strength to hold the assembly stiff while beam reaching in quartering seas or running in a major cross-wave. We had rudder issues on the Pac Cup race. Feel free to ask any detailed questions you like as I have lots of experience on the boat.

Surfing on the way to Hawaii (3/4 oz runner kite is flying)


The Nordic 44 is good enough to win second place to Hawaii!


Unfortunately, everything on the Nordic is considerably bigger.
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  #48  
Old 01-17-2013
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Re: Last Boat- Time to look at the end game Cruising Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by miatapaul View Post
You know one thing I am seeing is lots of Robert Perry designed boats. I think his style of designs seem to fit most of your desires. I don't think he has ever designed a bad boat.
That is because, for what Dave set as criteria, he is/was the prominent NA.

Brian
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  #49  
Old 01-17-2013
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Re: Last Boat- Time to look at the end game Cruising Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
You are right, I think I mentioned that I wouldnt be able to get everything...boats are often tradeoffs.

No motorboat for me We like to sail and do so in many different conditions

As an example one of the boats I like the Saga 43 has a great sailplan. A furled genoa for downhill sailing and a smaller furled sail for upwind. No self tacvking feature as I dont like that.

I would envision we would be doing a lot of trade sailing in the time we were in that part of time we were were on the boat, and conversely when we came back north we spend a lot more time close hauled and heading to windward so I want a boat which can do that effectively. ( This rules out brands like IP for me)

There are only two of us so the interior space needs to be comfortable, but not as wide open extensive as a Catalina, Hunter.

I understand what you say about the new vs old issue., I find very few newer boats that looks to me ( its only me) the way the older designs do. I know there have been many advances in hull design and I am obviously not going for that necessarily. ( Sure I want the Outbound but cant afford it). As far as maintainenece and replacement. That is a forever thing. Many of my friends are starting to replace stuff in their 12 year old boats which I replaced in the last few years. They may have newer boats, but my equipment is newer in many ways now. I see value in some of the classic car designs of years past and dont just beleive in throwing them away.

dave
Ok, based on what you say I would say that regarding price, a recent boat, comfortable, modern hull, fast, with a very good stability a good quality interior and a classic look, I can see you voyaging and living on one of these:

1- Grand Soleil 45
2 - Dufour 44

Draft will be the biggest problem. Both boats had versions with low draft but they are very hard to find because few were sold with that specification.

The prices are just indicative. At this moment in Europe you can get a boat by considerably less than the asking price.

Maybe you can find one in the US but I guess you would make a much better deal in Europe. Well, that's an opportunity for you to take your wife sailing in the Med.

The Grand Soleil 45







http://www.westcoastmarine.co.in/sal...and-soleil-45/


The Dufour 44 (it is not from the less expensive line - Grand large)








http://www.sdyachts.com/dufour425spec.htm


CANTIERE DEL PARDO GRAND SOLEIL 45 Grands voiliers: +16 m année

DUFOUR DUFOUR 44 - Voilier d'occasion - Evasion Nautisme

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 01-17-2013 at 11:08 AM.
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Old 01-17-2013
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Re: Last Boat- Time to look at the end game Cruising Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Ok, based on what you say I would say that regarding price, a recent boat, comfortable, modern hull, fast, with a very good stability a good quality interior and a classic look, I can see you voyaging and living on one of these:

1- Grand Soleil 45
2 - Dufour 44

Draft will be the biggest problem. Both boats had versions with low draft but they are very hard to find because few were sold with that specification.

The prices are just indicative. At this moment in Europe you can get a boat by considerably less than the asking price.

Maybe you can find one in the US but I guess you would make a much better deal in Europe. Well, that's an opportunity for you to take your wife sailing in the Med.

The Grand Soleil 45







Grand Soleil 45 | West Coast Marine Yacht Services Pvt. Ltd.


The Dufour 44 (it is not from the less expensive line - Grand large)








S&D Yachts (Malta) Limited - Dufour 455 - Specs


CANTIERE DEL PARDO GRAND SOLEIL 45 Grands voiliers: +16 m année

DUFOUR DUFOUR 44 - Voilier d'occasion - Evasion Nautisme

Regards

Paulo
Thanks Paulo. I like the Gran Soleis. They look like they have a powerful sailplan. I am reesearching them.

Dave
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