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  #21  
Old 01-24-2013
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Re: Why I like a full keel

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Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
As a broad generality, it would be easy to argue that it is equally probable to catch a line on a full keel boat as on a fin keel boat. Its about the geometry. On a full keel the propeller is closer to the bottom of the keel and a line being dragged will lay back along the side of the full keel with now where else to go, and therefore have a greater percentage of a chance of getting caught.
You seem to be forgetting the fact that as the line slides along the bottom of the keel, the prop will be protected by keel structure under the prop, hence the term 'aperture' in which the prop resides. The only way a line could touch the prop is on the side and even that is very unlikely since if there is any tension on the line at all its path would go from the bottom of the keel to the edge of the topsides near the waterline making it miss the prop entirely. For a line to get caught in a prop on a full keel, it must be slack and a portion of the line must find it's way along the inside of a concave surface to the vicinity of the prop as it goes by.

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On a many fin keels, the leading edge angle is similar to that of a full keel, yet the line is more likely to miss the prop since there is a longer distance between the root and the keel tip and there is a greater separation between the keel and the prop.
I would argue that the increased distance between the aft end of the keel an the prop make it more likely to snag a line. As a line passes under the keel, the increased distance will give the line more opportunity to come up and make contact with the prop. This would occur if the hull were pushing against the float that the line is attached to, causing some tension on the line. It seems to me the best place to put a propeller, to avoid being snagged by lines, is immediately aft of the trailing edge of the keel. Here it would be nearly as well protected as with a full keel. Most fin keel boats have the prop well aft (and well exposed) of the keel right in front of the rudder.


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And yes I know that full keel types still believe the old saw that full keels do not catch lines, or foul their props, or damage their rudders as easily, but that does not make those superstitions true.
And just because you don't believe them doesn't make them superstitions.
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  #22  
Old 01-24-2013
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Re: Why I like a full keel

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My Grandmother smoked until she died at 96 of natural causes. Just because smoking didn't kill her, doesn't mean everyone should smoke.
I have a protected prop... but I didn't inhale.
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  #23  
Old 01-24-2013
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Re: Why I like a full keel

Actually, I looked for a full keel boat in reaction to harvesting most of the weeds from my local lake with my keel cable on a swing keel. Just makes me feel all warm and fuzzy that the under body of the B27 is one smooth continuous fiberglass hulk.
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  #24  
Old 01-26-2013
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Re: Why I like a full keel

The assertion that a full keel yacht, with an attached rudder and the propeller in an aperture, is as vulnerable as a fin keel yacht for catching lines, like crab pots, is one of the most outlandish statements made on this forum. As one who is frequently running up and down the coast, the only conclusion I can come up with is the total lack of experience of the asserter OR that perhaps another agenda is showing itself. It is not unexpected that such an assertion is again coming from a theorist.
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  #25  
Old 01-26-2013
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Re: Why I like a full keel

Have lived and sailed in new england for 30+ years with multiple full keeled, skeg with apature.high aspect fins. IMHO
sailing- no problems except with fixed props left spinning.
motoring- more risk with fin but easier to clear

Answer- learn to sail your boat.get your electrons from wind/sun. never put your engine on except when you must. after all it's a SAIL boat.LOL
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  #26  
Old 01-26-2013
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Re: Why I like a full keel

Below is a picture of 'Indian', the 1939 Stadel Cutter that my Dad and I owned for close to a decade. It shows her in profile out of the water. It pretty clearly shows what I would call a full keel and also her two blade propeller in its aperture.

[IMG]Indian out of the water, Indian Hauled out for a bottom job[/IMG]

Of all the boats I ever owned, and all the boats I ever sailed over 50 years of sailing experience, this is the only one to have caught a line in her prop. Clearing that line while working in that tight aperture was a bear. It took a bunch of dives (without tanks) since you had to turn the rudder to one side, start to unwrap the line on that side, come up for air, turn the rudder to the other side and work on that side.

This is me in the mid 1970's, in my 20's when we were restoring the old girl and another of her sailing when the restoration was completed.

[IMG]Photobucket[/IMG]



Here is 'Diana', the Folkboat that I restored and owned before I owned 'Indian'.
[IMG]Photobucket[/IMG]

This is the only boat that I owned that had its rudder damaged in a grounding. Here I am as a 23 year old with my Dad working on the new rudder.

[IMG]Photobucket[/IMG]

In fairness, according to the prior owner who actually owned the boat when the rudder was damaged, the boat had run aground moving astern after loosing its rig. But still, given the position of the bottom of the rudder a mere couple inches above the very bottom of the keel, I would have to say that this rudder equally vulnerable if not more vulnerable than the rudders on a well designed fin keeler which is often a foot or more shallower than the bottom of the keel.

[IMG]Photobucket[/IMG]

So while I have no idea what lack of experience others may bring to this discussion, or what agendas others may use to perhaps justify their own choices in boats, and I cannot account for whether other people's opinions are expected or unexpected, or whether an assertion is coming from some unnamed 'theorist' pushing some viewpoint that suits them, I see no point in speculating on other people's motives.

All I can do, in any discussion, is call it as I see it, and base my opinions on my own direct experiences, the lessons I've learned working for and talking with highly regarded yacht designers that I have known, my work in boat yards, conversations with those who maintain boats of all sorts, sailing the boats I have owned or been guests on, and from my readings and from what only seems logical.

If you disagree my opinion, feel free to make your case. Explain why you think it may be mistaken. But otherwise you are more than welcome to your outlandish opinions, whether they are based on your own agenda, ignorance and/or theories, and you may be better served tempering your speculations so you do not sound quite so paranoid.

Jeff
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  #27  
Old 01-26-2013
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Re: Why I like a full keel

I totally disagree with your actions in selling Indian.

What a gorgeous boat. I guess you wanted to sail in under 10 Knots of wind.
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  #28  
Old 01-26-2013
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Re: Why I like a full keel

Thank you! beautiful pics, I love older wooden boats no comment on the Keels. captg
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  #29  
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Re: Why I like a full keel

agree with Jeff. Very hard to clear line in small aperture of full keel or skeg with aperture boat. Sweet lines on Indian but I would suspect your Farr goes farther faster.
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Re: Why I like a full keel

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Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
I totally disagree with your actions in selling Indian.

What a gorgeous boat. I guess you wanted to sail in under 10 Knots of wind.
I must say that I really loved that old boat. She sailed very well. My Dad kept her after I went off to get my masters degree and then sold her when he began spending more time on maintaining her than sailing. A young couple had her for years and went all over with her, and she even showed up here on the Chesapeake for several years. At last report she had been in a boat shed in Florida or Georgia for several years and was up for sale in WoodenBoat.

I always described her light air performance as graceful. One of the things that almost never gets discussed is the the difference between a boat that sails well, vs a boat with good performance. Both 'Indian' and the Folkboat sailed exceptionally well, by which I mean they were well mannered in all kinds of wind. Indian and Diana would sail in very light breezes, holding their courses and maintaining steerage in very light breezes. But their speeds would be very slow as compared to the more modern boats that I went on to own.

There is a very different aesthetic to sailing boats like these. They are still fun to sail, challenging in their own ways. Its not the type of boat that I chose to own these days, mostly because in my current lifestyle I buy boats which can cover bigger distances under sail with my limited time, but these are still boats that pull at my heart strings.

To this day, I cannot walk past a Rozinante or an S Boat without wondering whether they might make a great next boat for me.
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