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  #21  
Old 01-28-2013
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Re: Are Boats Built in the 70's Just Too Tired

Dont know the name he gives it, but calder explains in his maintanance book the effect of having a boat full of new systems. (refitted or new). After some initial issues it will have a problem free period and then when many of the systems get to the end of their live expectancy, you get lots of problems at once. For this reason he suggest it may be better to do steady maintanance instead of refitting a whole boat all at once.

I can immagine this is what people mean with the boats from the 70s where the engine, rigging, sails, electrical wiring and whatever may not yet have been replaced and all come to the end of their live expectancy now.

If however things are replaced on a regular basis, and everything is on a different point in its lifecycle, you should just have an old boat that needs maintanance. This effectively means you will be replacing one of these major things every few years and thus spend some 1000s per year for this maintanance. If you can do part of this yourself and part of it in cheap labor countries, this is still nothing compared to the write-off on the value of buying a (relatively) new boat. If you keep doing the maintenance, it seems to me that it should last for another century as long as it doesnt run into hurricanes or other major disasters.
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  #22  
Old 01-28-2013
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Re: Are Boats Built in the 70's Just Too Tired

I certainly have some experience in this area. It's common knowledge among sailors that all boats need work, and that's a given. But boats of that age, an in your price an size range, will need major, critical systems updated or replaced. This is what is probably referred to as being "tired" as far as boat condition goes. It will not be much fun at all going cruising on boat where engine, rigging, electrical and other systems are ticking time-bombs getting close to going off. If tackling the updates on these types of systems (and doing the work yourself) isn't what you would look forward to in boat ownership, then you probably need to adjust either the size or your budget in order to find something adequate.

For myself, I really like designing and installing the various systems on the boat. I like knowing what's there, knowing that it's done well, and if it's not done well, knowing that I don't have anyone else to blame but me. Since I bought the boat in late '06, I've either refurbished or replaced nearly every system on the boat. Truth is though, if I would have spent more money on a boat 10-15 years newer, I still would have likely went through the process of replacing and restoring, just to bring things up to date and make the system one of my design. So it didn't matter, within reason, how old the boat was, I was going to mess with stuff no matter what.

I think that's the main thing you have to decide, whether doing these types of system upgrades would be something you look forward to, at least to some extant, or whether it would just be torture, keeping you from your next destination.
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  #23  
Old 01-28-2013
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Re: Are Boats Built in the 70's Just Too Tired

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Originally Posted by blowinstink View Post
There are some other boats that are also capable that might be cheaper/ more "bang for your buck". Allieds, Cape Dories, some Pearsons, older Bristols and plenty of others or similar style that have less pedigree than those you named but also smaller price tags.

Luck
One of my favourite boats, the Bristol 35.5, can be had for $60K - and then you'd have a mid-80s built boat, 10 years newer than the boats you're thinking about. Still a REALLY well built boat. Still, I think you should factor in $20K for upgrades and fixes, that amount of money can go really fast.
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  #24  
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Re: Are Boats Built in the 70's Just Too Tired

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Originally Posted by JulieMor View Post
After the Annapolis Boat Show I trashed the Beneteau Sense. Although it's not my taste, the design tools available today produced almost a full length chine that reduced the ideal healing angle by about 5%. I found when I focused on current design advances, I was impressed by the results produced by computer aided design. So many of the weak links were being minimized in even the production boats. It's become easier to produce a better boat for less. That's not to be confused with build quality though.
My Wayfarer, designed in the 50s, had hard chines. Even though my boat was fibreglass, it was designed to be built in plywood and the chines are a result of joining 4 sheets of ply. They did indeed make it a stiffer boat than others in its class.

My point is that you hardly need modern design tools, hard chines have been in use for ever.
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Old 01-28-2013
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Re: Are Boats Built in the 70's Just Too Tired

One interesting observation btw.

Before i bought my boat (Rawson 30, 1971, 10k$) I talked with many people for advice and one advice seemed to be universal: Don't buy a catalina, hunter or beneteau. Really everyone told me this, both online, in quatemala and in florida. Everyone seemed to agree that these are weakbuild pieces of ****. I bought the Rawson partly because it has a very good reputation for being a sturdy blue water boat.

Now each time i look at treaths where people talk about buying boats for 100k or 200k, i keep seeing exactly those 3 names returning.

TBH, that makes me thing that people with the money for a new boat seem to be less informed, go for the well advertised nice looking picture boats and just look down upon old boats because they are cheap
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  #26  
Old 01-31-2013
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Re: Are Boats Built in the 70's Just Too Tired

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Originally Posted by barefootnavigator View Post
Just a thought but why not drop it to say 30 feet give or take and get a smaller boat in great condition.
This is almost what I was doing. I was thinking of "Get the last boat first" but then thinking that I'm still new to all this myself so decided to look and get something smaller but still be able to go just about anywhere I would want. I ended up with a Nor'sea 27 as my first boat and while I haven't had it in the water yet, I've still had some fun working on it to get it ready. Always reminds me of the saying "A bad day on the boat is better than a good day at work"

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Originally Posted by Arjen View Post
one advice seemed to be universal: Don't buy a catalina, hunter or beneteau.

I bought the Rawson partly because it has a very good reputation for being a sturdy blue water boat.
I was seeing the same advice about the common production boats. I got a Nor'sea 27 for having the same reputation of being a solid "blue water" boat. So far, I'm happy for this being my first (possibly only?) boat.
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  #27  
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Re: Are Boats Built in the 70's Just Too Tired

This above might be the best advice in the thread, if you're pushing your budget and are unsure if you can get the quality of boat you need for the money you have just go smaller! Having crewed all over the Med on a 32 foot cruiser from the early 80's every time I see the pictures I'm surprised again much boat it actually feels like. Lots of guests and people who are unfamiliar with the boat flopping all over the place in every breath of wind (ie. a typical weekend/daysailer scenario) makes a boat feel tiny. Getting it down to just the few people who live and crew full time and move about the boat like they would their living room changes everything.

Not only does everything get cheaper, it's all much easier to deal with and far more forgiving of many types of mistakes. Pretty much once you have headroom and space for the entire crew to stretch out and read a book at the same time you have plenty of boat. Anything beyond that is a luxury for when you have more money to spend.
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Re: Are Boats Built in the 70's Just Too Tired

Just my opinion, not much experience to back it up ...

I think it depends a lot on the person.

Some people like to have boats that are already fitted out and ready to sail, and only need to have a bit of maintenance done on them from time to time, not everybody likes to mess around in boats. Turnkey, like a condo, you spend enough money you get what you want. Those people aside ...

Some people like basic boats and projects are okay.

I'm more of the basic boat type and what matters to me is that the hull is strong and that the design is going to work. I'm not much of a features person and care little about the color of cushion covers, to me the way the rudder is mounted is much more important, that there is a way to handle heavy ground tackle, etc. I like some of the 1970's fiberglass (as far as fiberglass goes) if it is sound and built to last.

To use a house analogy, you wouldn't buy a house with a bad foundation for the curtains. The most important thing is the basic structure, the layout, foundation, roof, etc. Next in importance are the systems, the plumbing, wiring, things that can be changed but are a lot of work to change. After that comes the finish, choice of tile, paint, and finally the furniture and decoration. Boats are a lot like that and it would be a good analogy except that houses with bad foundations don't break apart in a storm and sink.

Fitting solar panels is easy, changing the hull design is impossible.

I think you have to start with a good basic boat.
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  #29  
Old 01-31-2013
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Re: Are Boats Built in the 70's Just Too Tired

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjen View Post
One interesting observation btw.

Before i bought my boat (Rawson 30, 1971, 10k$) I talked with many people for advice and one advice seemed to be universal: Don't buy a catalina, hunter or beneteau. Really everyone told me this, both online, in quatemala and in florida. Everyone seemed to agree that these are weakbuild pieces of ****. I bought the Rawson partly because it has a very good reputation for being a sturdy blue water boat.

Now each time i look at treaths where people talk about buying boats for 100k or 200k, i keep seeing exactly those 3 names returning.

TBH, that makes me thing that people with the money for a new boat seem to be less informed, go for the well advertised nice looking picture boats and just look down upon old boats because they are cheap
"Everyone" told you to avoid those 3 manufacturers? It sure wasn't me.

The Rawson is a solid boat for sure, but Catalinas and many Beneteaus are hardly "weak built pieces of $hit". They are not "blue water" boats, but they're not pretending to be. If you use them for their intended function, (River, bay, or coastal cruising) they are perfectly safe and reliable.

Catalina isn't one of the most prolific builders because they build crap. They've built tens of thousands of 22's, 25's, 27's and 30's.

Sequitur has safely made ocean passages on a Hunter 49, including around Cape Horn. The Cherubini-designed Hunters are sought after for their good design and durability.

I've never owned any of the above mentioned boats, but I've sailed on several. They're just fine for their intended use and the're not "garbage" just because they're not ocean passage-making vessels.

You might reconsider making such blanket statements in the future.
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  #30  
Old 01-31-2013
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Re: Are Boats Built in the 70's Just Too Tired

Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbleheadMd View Post
"Everyone" told you to avoid those 3 manufacturers?
I've never owned any of the above mentioned boats, but I've sailed on several. They're just fine for their intended use and the're not "garbage" just because they're not ocean passage-making vessels.

You might reconsider making such blanket statements in the future.
Agree with this.. and I suspect that Arjen spoke to a pretty select group of advisors.

Just as many, if not more, 'advisors' would tell you that the Rawson 30 is a tank that can't get out of its own way.... unless you add a bowsprit the weather helm will tear your arm off.... that doesn't make those statements necessarily true, but it may well be an almost 'universal' observation!
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