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  #31  
Old 01-31-2013
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Re: Are Boats Built in the 70's Just Too Tired

first research the replacement value of boat you are looking for and at. then market value of same boat in different states of repair/disrepair....
then figure out how much you can do yourself.
then figure out why you are wanting that particular boat...sail it and others before you buy.
you can fix many items while under way and many items are better done in other locales than usa, where all is pricey.

i bought this boat, a formosa 41 yankee clipper, for 10,000 usd. there are others like here in mexico for 5,000 usd. there are beautiful ones like mine for sale for 30,000 and up usd.
i was looking at and lost money on a ct 41 sea tiger--was trying to sell for 42,000--my 10k wonder was les initial money and i learned mine is in better condition than the one i was trying to purchase....go figger.

you must look hard at each boat you look at. survey will miss many important items needing repair. survey is only important for comprehensive insurance and bank loans. you go thru the boat as if you are a surveyor and find the problems. then learn how much it will take, money and labor, to repair ....i found that this boat in condition in which sh ei, was a better buy for my money than was the essentially same boat for 30k more than i laid out for this one.
to exactly answer the op question-- NO boats built in 1970s are only beginning to show their bones--keep em alive and they can cruise forever.
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  #32  
Old 01-31-2013
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Re: Are Boats Built in the 70's Just Too Tired

Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbleheadMd View Post
I've never owned any of the above mentioned boats, but I've sailed on several. They're just fine for their intended use and the're not "garbage" just because they're not ocean passage-making vessels.
While I don't necessarily agree with the wording he used, I think the spirit of his statement is true. Those brands simply don't build their boats as well as other manufacturers have in the past.

Take a look at any of the higher quality built boats (Cape Dory, Bristol, etc) from the 70s and you'll find bronze components that will last longer than us, well supported rigs, thick and well laid fiberglass, and overall quality construction throughout. Compare that to say, a Hunter, whose components and construction are clearly cheaper, of lower quality, and not as well thought out. While some of the obvious construction flaws are inconsequential on their own, it does represent the amount of time the builder used to built the boat correctly and the mindset throughout the build process. I know this is a corner case, but I remember hearing a story where a new Hunter 30 was purchased and the owner found a crack developing along the bow after a few months, they later found that the fiberglass cracked when it came out of the mold and the builder put some sort of paste in the crack. That does not inspire brand confidence, even if they addressed it properly.

That doesn't mean they are "sh**", though. They have a purpose and they fit it well, but I wouldn't expect a Hunter or Catalina to last as long as a better made boat, especially if it's left neglected for any period of time. I've seen several of the higher quality boats left neglected for years without major structural problems, but the same can't be said of the cheaper brands. That said, I'd sure rather live aboard a Catalina 27 than a boat that is aimed at being more seaworthy, all that space is really nice.

Also worth pointing out at least one Catalina 27 has circumnavigated, but required significant work, much more than a boat that was well constructed from the start.
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  #33  
Old 01-31-2013
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Re: Are Boats Built in the 70's Just Too Tired

Daniel, you got a Nor'sea for your first boat Awesome, I wonder if you have any Idea what you have there. When you make your first big ocean passage the big boats might beat you by a day or two but you will sail the whole way and they will motor half of it. That boat is one of my all time favorites.
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  #34  
Old 01-31-2013
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Re: Are Boats Built in the 70's Just Too Tired

Quote:
Originally Posted by barefootnavigator View Post
Daniel, you got a Nor'sea for your first boat Awesome, I wonder if you have any Idea what you have there. When you make your first big ocean passage the big boats might beat you by a day or two but you will sail the whole way and they will motor half of it. That boat is one of my all time favorites.
Thanks!

I did lots of research into different boats. I was looking at Cape Dory 27s, Bristol 27s and I was going to consider looking at a Bayfield too. But the Nor'sea came available right when I was about to start the physical searches and went for it. I wanted a sturdy boat that could go just about anywhere I wanted. It has a good reputation for its build and the draft was shallow enough to go just about anywhere I want. If I didn't get this one, a CD27 was next on the list.

I was initially told NOT to get a Nor'sea because I'm 6'5" and that it would be very cramped. It's really not as bad as I thought. I can lay down in the berths comfortably. I can't stand up while down below, but then that's what the deck is for

I'm mentioning my size compared to the boat because it works for me. Sure, I would love to have a boat where I can stand up in but that would require larger size of the boat and pockets to pay for it. For anyone, you may not always get everything you want in a boat, especially your first one. Just enjoy what you got, if you're starting out, then you'll have a better idea what to look for if or when you want to go bigger or upgrade what you have.

I do like my little boat. Looking forward to getting out on the water this spring/summer.
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  #35  
Old 02-01-2013
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Re: Are Boats Built in the 70's Just Too Tired

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjen View Post
One interesting observation btw.

Before i bought my boat (Rawson 30, 1971, 10k$) I talked with many people for advice and one advice seemed to be universal: Don't buy a catalina, hunter or beneteau. Really everyone told me this, both online, in quatemala and in florida. Everyone seemed to agree that these are weakbuild pieces of ****. I bought the Rawson partly because it has a very good reputation for being a sturdy blue water boat.

Now each time i look at treaths where people talk about buying boats for 100k or 200k, i keep seeing exactly those 3 names returning.

TBH, that makes me thing that people with the money for a new boat seem to be less informed, go for the well advertised nice looking picture boats and just look down upon old boats because they are cheap
I suppose that is why the VAST majority of the above mentioned pieces of $hit are still being sailed even though they are 40 years old? If all you are planning on doing is coastal sailing (going no farther than say the islands on the east coast or the California Baha path) then buying a blue water capable boat is really a waste of money and time, as you will spend twice as long getting to your destinations. Maintenance costs will likely be more because of more limited production means more custom parts. The mentioned turds would not be in Guatemala if they could not get there would they? Now a poorly maintained "blue water" boat is going to be just as bad as a poorly maintained production boat.

Another issue is going to be ability to sail. Say the Chesapeake you are going to be motoring a lot in your slow Rawson, while the Catalina/Hunters/Beneteau's will be sailing past you enjoying the peaceful sail.

My real guess is that the person giving you that advice was trying to sell a Rawson, not a Catalina. This may have tainted there view.

But in general yes a 70's boat is likely to need some updating. But keep in mind electronics are considered outdated in just a few years, so even a 2000 boat my need new chart plotters and radar if you need such stuff.

So the real lesson is get a boat that best serves your needs. If you are planning on real blue water adventures then Blue water ability is good, it is a disadvantage otherwise. "less informed" absolutely not, different priority's yes, but likely better informed based on your post.

Just like the miss-informed thought that they built them better because they did not know how strong fiberglass was. No they were over built because they did not yet have the techniques to do it any other way. Just like people look at cars the same way, saying they were more reliable back in the day, untill you look at real statistics and today's cars are more reliable, faster safer, better handling and get better gas mileage. Now I love old British sports cars, but no way do they compare to today's cars, except on a windy country road on a sunny Sunday. (if it decides to start of course) You sure don't want to try to get to work in one, believe me I tried it!
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Last edited by miatapaul; 02-01-2013 at 01:37 PM.
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  #36  
Old 02-01-2013
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Re: Are Boats Built in the 70's Just Too Tired

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinook View Post
Compare that to say, a Hunter, whose components and construction are clearly cheaper, of lower quality, and not as well thought out.
I'm not a big fan of Hunters but I totally disagree with the "not as well thought out" part of your post. My friends Hunter 38 is the most remarkably WELL thought out boat I have ever sailed. It does exactly what it was designed and built for, does it very well and is FULL of extremely well thought out and developed ideas and details.

I don't like their looks and I don't care for the B&R rig but other than that they are damn near perfect for cruising around here. I've never found anything about it (other than those two "minor" things) where I thought "I don't like the way they did that".
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  #37  
Old 02-01-2013
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Re: Are Boats Built in the 70's Just Too Tired

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhapsody-NS27 View Post
I was initially told NOT to get a Nor'sea because I'm 6'5" and that it would be very cramped. It's really not as bad as I thought. I can lay down in the berths comfortably. I can't stand up while down below, but then that's what the deck is for
At 6'5" you will rarely find a boat you CAN stand up in. I'm only 6' and headroom is a regular problem for me, especially in boats under 40' or so.

P.S. Great choice of boat.
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Last edited by SloopJonB; 02-01-2013 at 02:27 PM.
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  #38  
Old 02-01-2013
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Re: Are Boats Built in the 70's Just Too Tired

Regarding fiberglass fatigue, are there any studies or test how the effects of fiberglass fatigue impact seaworthiness? More specifically, what are the warning signs aside from the usual (bad blistering, delamination, cracking, etc) that impacts seaworthiness? At what point do you say "This boat is x years old and is more prone to sustaining irreparable damage at sea due to age/fatigue"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
I'm not a big fan of Hunters but I totally disagree with the "not as well thought out" part of your post. My friends Hunter 38 is the most remarkably WELL thought out boat I have ever sailed. It does exactly what it was designed and built for, does it very well and is FULL of extremely well thought out and developed ideas and details.

I don't like their looks and I don't care for the B&R rig but other than that they are damn near perfect for cruising around here. I've never found anything about it (other than those two "minor" things) where I thought "I don't like the way they did that".
You are right, my wording was a bit broad.

In my limited experience, it's the "small" things that add up over time. The quality of materials used, the way things are installed, etc. For instance, are the winches backed by backing plates properly, how are the chainplates supported, etc. They may ship from the factory fine, but how is the construction in those areas going to hold up 10/20/30/40 years from now or under unusual circumstances?

In one specific example, I know of a Hunter that ran aground and sustained fairly substantial damage to the keel and hull/keel joint area. During the repair, it was noted that the keel had nothing in place to properly spread the load of the keel along the bottom of the hull. For 99% of the boats out there, it doesn't matter, but for that small percentage where it's gonna be necessary, it makes a difference. It also represents the general attitude and time that was put into assembling the boat properly.

So by "not well thought out", I mean that the little details were overlooked or unwise decisions were made in small things, not the design or layout of the boat itself.

They have their use and they are fine for that, don't get me wrong. The point I was getting at is that the forces of time and neglect are more powerful against those boats than others.

Last edited by Shinook; 02-01-2013 at 02:43 PM.
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  #39  
Old 02-01-2013
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Re: Are Boats Built in the 70's Just Too Tired

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinook View Post
You are right, my wording was a bit broad.

In my limited experience, it's the "small" things that add up over time. The quality of materials used, the way things are installed, etc. For instance, are the winches backed by backing plates properly, how are the chainplates supported, etc. They may ship from the factory fine, but how is the construction in those areas going to hold up 10/20/30/40 years from now or under unusual circumstances?

In one specific example, I know of a Hunter that ran aground and sustained fairly substantial damage to the keel and hull/keel joint area. During the repair, it was noted that the keel had nothing in place to properly spread the load of the keel along the bottom of the hull. For 99% of the boats out there, it doesn't matter, but for that small percentage where it's gonna be necessary, it makes a difference. It also represents the general attitude and time that was put into assembling the boat properly.

So by "not well thought out", I mean that the little details were overlooked or unwise decisions were made in small things, not the design or layout of the boat itself.

They have their use and they are fine for that, don't get me wrong. The point I was getting at is that the forces of time and neglect are more powerful against those boats than others.
Was that a small one? The reason I ask is the 38 I've sailed has a very elaborate grid in the bilge. It also has a shoal, wing keel so the leverage forces are small for the size of boat. I've never seen a Hunter "smile".
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  #40  
Old 02-01-2013
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Re: Are Boats Built in the 70's Just Too Tired

Jon, in the 70's Hunter had a rep for being a cheap boat, lightly built and sold to newbs mainly on price. After all, the owner lost his own keel on Thursday's Child and that must have been embarassing as all hell.

But what some people called "cheap" other folks called "affordable" and by building cheap boats, Hunter got a lot of people into sailing. So that's not all a bad thing. Supposedly they started building to a higher standard later on. And of course, a 38 is about twice as big as the usual "starter" boat. And probably built after the edict to "Make sure the damend keel stays on!" was issued. (G)
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