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  #41  
Old 02-03-2013
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Re: Are Boats Built in the 70's Just Too Tired

A. Want to emphasize the advice given by Chef to JulieMor:
1. New boats cost a lot in depreciation.
2. New boats will have lots of issues initially - as many IMHO as well-maintained older boats.
3. There are statistics on the 'sweet spot' for buying a boat. Something 3-5 years old is likely to have the kinks fixed, the systems are still new enough to work, and the major depreciation hit has been taken.

If you can afford the 3-5 year old boat you want, that's a much better bet than a new one. But again - you're buying the owner(s) as well as the boat.

B. On surveyors: Your surveyor must go up the mast. S/he must be able to test electrical and engine systems. You must do a haul out. Even with all that, YOU should test that every aspect of the boat works (or that the price reflects known defects), inspect every turnbuckle, find and view the chainplates, etc. Surveyors do have limited time, but hopefully you only fully rely on them for expertise you don't have.
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Old 02-03-2013
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Re: Are Boats Built in the 70's Just Too Tired

Quote:
Originally Posted by Outrageous View Post
A. Want to emphasize the advice given by Chef to JulieMor:
1. New boats cost a lot in depreciation.
2. New boats will have lots of issues initially - as many IMHO as well-maintained older boats.
3. There are statistics on the 'sweet spot' for buying a boat. Something 3-5 years old is likely to have the kinks fixed, the systems are still new enough to work, and the major depreciation hit has been taken.

If you can afford the 3-5 year old boat you want, that's a much better bet than a new one. But again - you're buying the owner(s) as well as the boat.

B. On surveyors: Your surveyor must go up the mast. S/he must be able to test electrical and engine systems. You must do a haul out. Even with all that, YOU should test that every aspect of the boat works (or that the price reflects known defects), inspect every turnbuckle, find and view the chainplates, etc. Surveyors do have limited time, but hopefully you only fully rely on them for expertise you don't have.
Every surveyor contract I have read says that they do not go up the mast and that engines and rigging are not covered other than basic inspection. Rigging and mechanical inspections are separate, and normally different people.
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Old 02-03-2013
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Re: Are Boats Built in the 70's Just Too Tired

"B. On surveyors: Your surveyor must go up the mast."
On what planet?
As Paul says, I've never met or even heard of a surveyor who goes up the mast. Riggers go up the mast, no one else routinely does. You want a surveyor to go aloft, you call a rigger and get a rigging survey. From a rigger. You want an engine tested, you get an engine survey, from a mechanic. General surveyors don't do detailed engine tests, either.
A surveyor? Yeah, checks the boat for many things, and doesn't check others. Might tell you there are rats in the rope locker, won't tell you how many there are.
Surveyor up the stick? Yeah, reminds me of why the angel on top of the xmas tree has such a surprised look on her face. (Oooooh!)
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Old 02-03-2013
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Re: Are Boats Built in the 70's Just Too Tired

Quote:
Originally Posted by Outrageous View Post
A. Want to emphasize the advice given by Chef to JulieMor: 1. New boats cost a lot in depreciation.
That's for sure - in this market you can buy a decent older 35' for what just the initial depreciation would be on a new 40'.

20% of a quarter mil is $50K
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Re: Are Boats Built in the 70's Just Too Tired

Understand the logic of prior posters concerning the economics of new boats.Until now I never owned a new boat and never thought to have a semi custom boat made for me. Still think ( and acted on it) that:
1.depends where you are in life. I've owned multiple boats and know this one will be my last.
2.from the prior boats fairly definite in what I wanted on my last boat.
3. know my physical limitations and emotional aspirations.
4.know what physical hardships my wife will put up with and stay on the boat.
5. don't know what others consider a "blue water" vessel but know with in reason that the boat I live and travel on should be able to handle whatever we may encounter.
Yes,my boat loan will be greater than my mortgage ( until we sell the house). Yes, I will lose money selling my current boat which I turned into a blue water boat.
You guys can make fun of my power winches,flatscreen TV, internet access anywhere, being plummed for watermaker and washer/drier,. But I fully intend to be sailing in my eighties and making new landfalls on a boat that sails wonderfully and will always make me smile when I look back at her from the dinghy. I ate potatoes and spaghetti 7 days a week and worked the 80h weeks for too many years to not fully enjoy the last hurrah. It aint about the money - enjoy the opportunities the Lord blessed you with.

Sounds like you and many of the posters are in a different place. Getting an iconic boat with a cult following ( B40, BCC,HR, Valiant, Shannon etc.) probably will allow you the best chance to get in and out with little financial hardshp. That's great but make sure she moves your heart as you row away.

p.s.- still think ( my research suggests) once beyond coastal prodution boats if boat is held for 10+ yrs. cost of ownership not as onerious as prior posters would suggest.
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Old 02-04-2013
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Re: Are Boats Built in the 70's Just Too Tired

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Understand the logic of prior posters concerning the economics of new boats.Until now I never owned a new boat and never thought to have a semi custom boat made for me. Still think ( and acted on it) that:
1.depends where you are in life. I've owned multiple boats and know this one will be my last.
2.from the prior boats fairly definite in what I wanted on my last boat.
3. know my physical limitations and emotional aspirations.
4.know what physical hardships my wife will put up with and stay on the boat.
5. don't know what others consider a "blue water" vessel but know with in reason that the boat I live and travel on should be able to handle whatever we may encounter.
Yes,my boat loan will be greater than my mortgage ( until we sell the house). Yes, I will lose money selling my current boat which I turned into a blue water boat.
You guys can make fun of my power winches,flatscreen TV, internet access anywhere, being plummed for watermaker and washer/drier,. But I fully intend to be sailing in my eighties and making new landfalls on a boat that sails wonderfully and will always make me smile when I look back at her from the dinghy. I ate potatoes and spaghetti 7 days a week and worked the 80h weeks for too many years to not fully enjoy the last hurrah. It aint about the money - enjoy the opportunities the Lord blessed you with.

Sounds like you and many of the posters are in a different place. Getting an iconic boat with a cult following ( B40, BCC,HR, Valiant, Shannon etc.) probably will allow you the best chance to get in and out with little financial hardshp. That's great but make sure she moves your heart as you row away.

p.s.- still think ( my research suggests) once beyond coastal prodution boats if boat is held for 10+ yrs. cost of ownership not as onerious as prior posters would suggest.
What you say is sound advice for you and your choice. Some of us actually enjoy our last harrahs and not just on our boats also., I agree with your acessments including the important " she moves your heart commmet" I dont begrude you creature comforts and elctric winches, TV..they make the boat enjoyable...and why not.

Outbounds are beautiful boats. One of my favorites at the shows and to sail also. I wouldnt take a haughty attitude though as your Outbound like the Valiants/ Shannons of the past (which you seemed to swiped at sarcasticly) will become as you said "an iconic boat with a cult following" in fifteen years.

Also I guess it is a matter of how we run our households too. I soon will be through with our mortage in 4 years. When looking at our last boat I intend to own it and have pride in that as opposed to renting it via a mortage from the bank. One which I will not be upside down in for at least 10 years. I will never have to worry should anything catastrophic occur to my wife and I that I will have to make payments or potentially loose our boat. In addition in the latter years of our life the money we have will be able to be spent freely no fixed cost for a boat payment. I guess I just feel more secure at the time in my life when I am not longer able to earn money, that I dont want to afford something which I am still paying on. Just how I was brought up and maybe my overconservative way of handling finances,

I beleive I can find a well made 10-20 year own solid cruiser in the 40-50 ft range and not pay the bank or the watch its value depreciate 25% immediately as I leave the dock for the first time.

Understand I dont begrudge someone with a differing philosophy than mine, but far be it from me to think insinuate that buying an older boat was a " cult following" decision based on doing without. Quite the opposite in our case. We dont want it to be the only thing in our lives and be tied down by it.

Have fun on your Outbound its a great boat. I hope your plans to sail into your 80s work out for you as you have planned. I gaurentee the rest of us will also have as much fun on boats we decide on as we get into our 80s also.

Dave
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Last edited by chef2sail; 02-04-2013 at 03:33 AM.
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  #47  
Old 02-05-2013
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Re: Are Boats Built in the 70's Just Too Tired

Dave- may you always keep your keel wet and stick dry. I wish you joy. Thought about this-with money in the 4%s and return on investment in the 5-8% (most of it fixed return) figure to play with other peoples money. Wouldn't do this if I could not just buy out the loan when I want. I have lusted after a V50 for years and think the Shannon 43 done as a sketch is one of the prettiest boats ever built ( spoke to Walter about getting one but couldnt make the jump). Never owned a BCC because I never had the time to keep after the wood. Done Marion/Bermuda on a B40 so she holds a special place as well. Only point I was trying to make is it seemed you guys thought folks actually building new boats are idiots. That not true.It's usually a thought out decision just -different strokes for different folks. Doing without is not having a boat. Sun dries us all and rain makes us all wet. Please believe I was not making the insinuation you ascribe to me.
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  #48  
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Re: Are Boats Built in the 70's Just Too Tired

What I have found with regards to most all of the smaller vessels and the numerous manufacturer's is a substantial amount of research is involved in making these determinations, and as mentioned above knowing what the vessel was designed and intended to perform in the first place. Having purchased, restored and sailed three small -medium boats: 24'-wood Folkboat, 22' Catalina, and currently a 30' Irwin, I have been through the rigors of this effort. Checking make, model & year for starters, and actually talking with folks who have owned a certain boat you are interested in is very helpful...but remember, no matter the reputation, all makes and models have their weakness & strengths...and when buying used... assessing how well the vessel was kept is one of the most important considerations to make.

'Bluewater' and bluewater capable are words people tend to throw around, (myself included) sure there are accepted definitions, but it is only part of the equation. I have sailed far off shore a bit, no passage, so have limited experience, although commercial fished off shore in the Pacific one season, an added perspective. Have been in a few storms / gales...Bluewater is a very relative term from my perspective and experience, but experience is as foremost as anything in determining your understanding. You can have the highest rated 'Bluewater' boat in your class, and lose it in storm conditions in any waters...

I have refitted, re-conditioned comp. post...beefed up and re-built main salon bulknead, already know the hull is solid...deck is strong, next will be to do some up-grade on the deck to hull connection. I will feel very confident in this old 76' Irwin 30...she sails like a dream, very forgiving and fairly comfortable for a thirty footer!

Here's enough wind to get any hull moving!

Last edited by BenMerc; 02-05-2013 at 09:11 AM. Reason: typos
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Re: Are Boats Built in the 70's Just Too Tired

Out of curiosity, in y'alls experience, what's the effect of neglect on a boat that's been on the hard instead of in the water? Let's say the same vessel was on the hard for 10 yrs vs in the water, untouched in both situations.

While things like blistering are obviously not a problem when on the hard, I am curious what the effect of the sun and elements are when the boat is on blocks for a long period of time.
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Re: Are Boats Built in the 70's Just Too Tired

If not under cover, on the hard don't really help much more in my experience... a few boats I looked at that were on the hard , one for several years had interior water damage, and lots of it, saw 1' & 2' water stains / lines on the interior...The owner played it down, and played up the Stephen's designed hull etc....I passed on the vessel...was in need of a much more knowledgeable assessment then I was willing to invest in.
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