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  #91  
Old 02-21-2013
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Thanks iPhone. For all the help you give me. Like I can't seem like a jackass on my own.

Mods!!! Help!!!
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  #92  
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by c. breeze View Post
...I am also gratified that you made no effort to refute my claim that on most cruising cats "sailing" is an afterthought in the design and layout. I suppose I should be further thankful to you for going on to support my claim- via the 99% / 1% argument.
Did you claim this? I wouldn't argue the point although I certainly didn't appreciate the Buick reference, however I did understand it. The price of catamarans almost dictates that you won't see many young people owning one. It's a shame as these are platforms which attract women into sailing and that's not an insignificant thing.

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I do get curious when I see mention Of all the time it takes to learn how to sail a boat in one sentence- and all this talk of autopilot and admiral chasing basically throughout. People don't buy these boats to learn how to get the most ou of them. They buy them because they have an equivalent number of electrical outlets as there home- and more square footage than most 2 bedroom apts. ....
Sailing basics are sailing basics no matter what kind of boat you're on. However, the fact that catamarans don't heel is huge. A catamaran sailor mantra is to REEF EARLY as catamarans don't have the feel of a small sail boat nor do they heel. As wind builds you will get into trouble. By this I'm not suggesting they all flip over. Things on board will start breaking, which is never a good thing.

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I better retreat to the crew wanted thread that mentions the kids sailin j24s so the old farts have a ready source of up and coming crew. I prefer the idea that even when I'm 70- if I make it that far- that sailing will still be my primary incentive for being on a sailboat.
You don't know that. Or is there an electric winch in your future? I'm 62 and didn't think I'd still be sailing at all.

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I also found the S Hull / sacrificial keel design intricacy interesting. I get the sacraficial keel- but what is the s hull- and how does it work? You can explain it or provide links- either way. Thanks.
Morrelli & Melvin are the designers of the Americas cup series , they also designed the Leopard and Gunboat series of catamarans as well as many others. They have a new design which uses the "S" hull. Link is here:

Features | Indikon Boat Works | Indikon Boat Works

In addition, BMW Oracle uses an "S" hard chine main hull on their America's cup boat, and they're obviously very successful campaigning that boat.

Lastly not all catamarans are "condomarans". It's interesting that the two most recognized performance catamaran designers are at opposite ends of the hierarchy. Morrelli & Melvin are the mavens of Americas Cup and Richard Woods Designs concentrates on performance oriented affordable catamaran designs. I guess he never grew out of his racing days which at last count included 32 Atlantic crossings. Richard is a friend of mine and stops by and visits me as he's sailing through my part of the world. His boats are the fastest sailing I have ever done outside of Hobie Cats. Link to his site - Richard Woods Designs

Woods is a proponent of centerboards (he and I have discussed this at length as I used to disagree with him). I've sailed his 32' Eclipse and his 38' Transit. Both were incredible but the Transit at 38' seemed much larger than it's size would suggest in the interior, yet sailed not only better than my boat, she sailed easier. Truly amazing designs.
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Last edited by TropicCat; 02-21-2013 at 07:06 AM.
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  #93  
Old 02-21-2013
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The 99/1 thing wasn't an economic or political reference. It was you saying that 99% of the time is in the hook or ball or dock- and 1% is spent sailing.

Of course sailing basics are sailing basics. In that light- it really took me a bit longer than it should have to realize that my alberg drawn boat isn't that different (performance wise) from an opti- IE keep it upright. To this end I'm all about some early reefing. As I told my dad a short month after taking ownership " pop- it's a travesty that this boat that is a dog in less than 10 knots needs a reef at 12 to sail". Nope. No travesty- just not the stiff performance oriented boat I grew up on. The keelboats I had sailed most prior to this boat were sabres shaw era pearsons J's
And cals. All a far cry from anything Carl alberg drew.

Lets have a chat about multis.-imageuploadedbytapatalk1361445642.091749.jpg

None of the girls I know would be caught dead on a rig like this. Sure looks aren't everything- or even much at all- but seriously? Hence the Buick regal station wagon reference.

I'm familiar with the designers- and there success an failure on the campaign trail- but I'm about to spend a bunch of time learning about s hulls and what they are about. That said- the hull isn't the problem on your typical cruising cAt- IE the leopard. A hull is only as good as the condo you bolt to the top if it.

I'm probably of the farrier/ corsair school mainly when it comes to "cruising" multihulls. Reasonable pointing, pretty decent tacking for a multihull, and of course they just haul ass.

My sister in law is of the opinion that I would crack a big grin if you stuck me in the middle of the ocean or a swimming pool in a bathtub with a broomstick and a bed sheet. Point being- I don't give a good god damn what I'm on or where I am as long as there is wind and waves. I really want to like the cruise cats- I've delivered a few- I find the final execution of the design lacking however- from the viewpoint of the sailor. Because of my roots- I'm always looking for that magic combo of flying and sailing however- so I ll continue to keep my eyes ears and mind open.

And also- I will hold to the belief that sailboats are for sailing first and foremost. As soon as you start to chop into that functionality- they are boring, and may as well be stinkboAts. I'm not the guy who screams for a more seaworthy boat- though I do appreciate one. I'm the guy who will rail against builders (we aren't talking designers- builders are the ones who execute well or ruin a design) who take a sailboat and turn it into the ghastly abominations you see motoring around the carribean.
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  #94  
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I also note that you are having at least 2 -3 conversations right now- and as such the accusations, questions and critiques are all coming pretty quick and can be tough to track and address-

Like I've heard it said- 9 out of 10 people love a gang bang... Your being a damn good sport here- and it's not lost on me.
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  #95  
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

Ahhh .... a purist. I can respect that. Like I said earlier, it's the reason there are so many boat models to choose from.
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  #96  
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Addressing the rigging tune point etc- can we agree that with a high aspect fractional rig- as you typically see on these boats ( and a great rig with tons of potential) it is all about the leech- IE sail trim isn't anymore dificult than with older traditional masthead rigs- but- other than feel- you really need to watch that leech- more so than with a main with less roach and a longer boom. And honestly- I don't know if other than the "race" boat my pop helped deliver a while back that I've ever seen one with tell tales on the leech. Maybe just because you can't see the sails anyway from the damn cockpit- so why add the .76 ounces. Or whatever- point is- again- awesome rig- great hulls- but the whole picture isn't of a boat designed with sailing as the primary goal.

My enthusiasm for admiral chasing wanes in direct proportion to the beam she carries too far aft- just as my enthusiasm for sailing a boat wanes in direct proportion to how you have crippled her.
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

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Addressing the rigging tune point etc- can we agree that with a high aspect fractional rig- as you typically see on these boats ( and a great rig with tons of potential) it is all about the leech...
You misunderstood or I wasn't clear. I wasn't referring to sail trim when I said "rig tuning". Sail trim is of course related but a different conversation.

Because of the lack of feel and the predominance of hydraulic steering, a lot of boat owners don't even know where there rudder is on any point of sail but particularly with regard to pointing ability. All boats should take advantage of rudder lift but large catamarans particularly benefit from it. Rig tuning determines weather helm or lee helm and tunes the boat to proper balance. I usually do this on a close reach.

Some newer boats were designed with no backstays. Which is great for big roach sails but challenging when finding proper boat balance. This is an important issue and should be one of the finer points boat buyers be aware of.
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