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post #21 of 116 Old 02-06-2013
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

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Originally Posted by MokaKat View Post
chucklesR,
As a prior owner of a Gemini, would you buy another one? How was the quality? We plan on buying our first large cruiser, after having smaller monohulls, and spend a couple of years in the caribbean. We have been looking at Fountaine Pajot and Lagoon in the 35 to 38 foot range. I spent a week on a Fountaine 42 last October, and was impressed on the stability and performance. It did struggle on being close hauled (45 degrees). My budget is between $150,000 and $200,000, depending on whether it is ready to cruise. Originally thought that I would consider the Gemini, but thought that they seems to be a little light weight for what I was wanting to do. Since we are 6 months away from having to make any decision, I am open to opinions.
In short, no, I would not. I'd save a little for a heavier CRUISING catamaran. As I said above when they try to stick a racer/cruiser moniker on a boat you wind up with a compromised boat.

Gemini's are faster because they have a 8.76 :1 ratio length to beam on the hulls. Unfortunately the max beam is 4 feet. Pounds per inch immersion is only 450 pounds per hull.
That is the major indicator of how much weight affects performance.

Take the same money (225k for a loaded, new Gemini) and apply it to a used FP, Maxium 38 etc and you'll be happier.

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post #22 of 116 Old 02-06-2013
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

Thanks chucklesR! That was what I was thinking too, but wanted to hear it from someone that actually owned one!
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post #23 of 116 Old 02-06-2013
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

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...The fact they have not much thing to say about sailing is give you a hint that these boats are not designed to give pleasure as sailing boats. They work alright on autopilot and sail you to where you want to go but they are really about space and quality life at anchor. It seems they fit perfectly your bill...
Where are all the sailnet catamaran people?

If you enjoy the 'feel of a boat' while sailing, a catamaran is not for you. Think of them as your home away from home which doesn't roll at anchor or DDW. I do agree with chuckles that cats do heel, but in my case it takes 22 knots of wind under full sail to get to a measurable heel.

As for speed, this is debatable. As several have noted, some catamarans can be very sensitive to weight. Look at the fineness of the hulls and whether or not the boat has a hard chine. Fatter hulls and hulls with a hard chine handle weight better than slender hulled boats with some sacrifice in performance.

I don't sail for speed. I love my boat because of the comfort it delivers. At the end of the day there isn't a mono guy in my marina that wouldn't trade boats with me in a heartbeat.

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post #24 of 116 Old 02-06-2013
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

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Where are all the sailnet catamaran people?

If you enjoy the 'feel of a boat' while sailing, a catamaran is not for you. Think of them as your home away from home which doesn't roll at anchor or DDW. I do agree with chuckles that cats do heel, but in my case it takes 22 knots of wind under full sail to get to a measurable heel.
The SN catamaran folks are out sailing and such, far from the internet.

Your Catalac is solid cruising cat, same basic length as mine, heavier and IIRC a 18 foot beam compared to a Gem's 14.
No doubt you heel less.
I installed an inclino-meter as a joke, it only went to 10 degrees.

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post #25 of 116 Old 02-06-2013
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

Is this a cruising cat?
To some it is to others not...

NorCat 37 N o r C a t - Info




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post #26 of 116 Old 02-06-2013 Thread Starter
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

I think in the main we have settled that accomodation wise Cats are their own pyjamas. If I have one major criticism of Cat interiors it is that the designers seem obsessed with curved settees .... in my eye an utter abomination . It must be admitted however that the more modern cruising monos are leaps and bounds ahead of their older cousins in providing comfort for their crews ... at least when anchored.

Now please, humour me somewhat as I know damn well that my knowledge of what may make a good cruising cat is somewhat limited.

LOA ... I'd thought that circa 40' had bought us into the range of big enough to avoid the downsides of a small cat. If it is so that nothing under 50' will suffice then I lose interest very rapidly indeed. I wouldn't go to a 50' mono so a 50' cat is most assuredly out of the question. Paulo's suggestion therefore that 40' is simply not big enough does concern me.

Performance ..... it would appear that something along the lines of a Lagoon 420 is pretty much on par with a medium performance mono, go to a dagger board design and things are looking better. That said and looking only at working sails (no assy for the moment) our Malo is never going to see plus ten knots, in "crikey maybe we need to tuck in a reef soon" winds we've seen 8.5knts and maybe with an assy we could see that on a reach in lighter winds. However, despite the fact that she is a big old heavy cruiser, in order to maintain that kind of speed you need to sail the old girl. Plonk her on auto and leave her pretty much to her own devices then she'll settle into a 6.5knt (or thereabouts) groove. That is fifty miles a day difference, or on a 100nm passage a difference of four hours. So, at 8.5 knots I can leave at dawn and be in port by nightfall. At 6.5 I need to be away in the middle of the night. So even a couple of knots is important.

Once upon a time if asked about such a difference I'd have answered, so whats the hurry ? The hurry quite frankly is not wanting to set sail in the dark and not wanting to arrive in a strange port after dark. If, and I say if, a mid performing cruising cat could see those 8.5 knts as a regular groove then the performance while seemingly only marginally better than a mono is in fact quite significant. I don't know about the rest of you but leaving port in the dark, settling the boat in for a passage in the dark, settling yourself in for a passage in the dark is not something I do for fun. Oh sure, on a moonlit night with bugger all wind leaving a quiet port can be thoroughly pleasant, doing the same thing into even a 15 knot headwind over a barred entrance where you will have to motor out and then set sail is very different critter indeed.

Sailing enjoyment ... despite saying that we spend 90% of our time at anchor most of our sailing (other than a harbour day sail) is coastal and I do enjoy my sailing. Having never sailed a large multi I'll be very interested to see how I feel about it. Geoff and a couple of others downplay the sailing enjoyment, that is of some concern.

Methinks a charter may be in my future.

Thanks to Chuckles and Tropi for adding a multi hull perspective to the thread.

Keep it coming.

Andrew B

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post #27 of 116 Old 02-06-2013 Thread Starter
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

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Originally Posted by knuterikt View Post
Is this a cruising cat?
To some it is to others not...
Nice boat and overall yes, she is a cruising cat but for the purpose of this thread not applicable for much the same reason as my dismissal of Paulo's nominated trimaran.

I'm not knocking you, Paulo or those boats but i'm thinking in terms of boats that fit the norm of a cruising cat.

cheers

Andrew B

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Last edited by tdw; 02-06-2013 at 06:07 PM.
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post #28 of 116 Old 02-06-2013
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

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Originally Posted by tdw View Post
...
LOA ... I'd thought that circa 40' had bought us into the range of big enough to avoid the downsides of a small cat. If it is so that nothing under 50' will suffice then I lose interest very rapidly indeed. I wouldn't go to a 50' mono so a 50' cat is most assuredly out of the question. Paulo's suggestion therefore that 40' is simply not big enough does concern me.

....
Sailing enjoyment ... despite saying that we spend 90% of our time at anchor most of our sailing (other than a harbour day sail) is coastal and I do enjoy my sailing. Having never sailed a large multi I'll be very interested to see how I feel about it. Geoff and a couple of others downplay the sailing enjoyment, that is of some concern.

...
Maybe I was not clear. When I said that a 40ft cat is not big enough I was talking about a voyage cat, a cat designed with passage making in mind. A boat like yours is in my opinion more seaworthy than a 40ft cat. A 40ft cat is perfectly capable as a coastal cruiser and even as an offshore boat, only in a less extent than a 40ft typical cruiser boat.

Putting it another way: A good 30ft monohull can pass EC certification as a Class A boat, I don't believe a 30ft cat would be able to do that.

But not all are the same. It is not only the boards but also the windage and a high CG. I guess that if you try a lagoon style cat you are going to be bored unless you don't enjoy sailing. It will not make a substantial difference in speed regarding your boat.

Australia has some great cruising cats. See if you can try one of these:



from Julie Geldard on Vimeo.



Schionning Wilderness 40 cruising catamaran | Multihull Yacht Sales Australia

Regards

Paulo
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post #29 of 116 Old 02-06-2013
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

I have a lot to say about Paulo's post but if I did this thread would degenerate into a mono / multi slug fest, so I will refrain.

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post #30 of 116 Old 02-06-2013 Thread Starter
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

Tropic .... it doesn't have to degenerate into a slug fest , nor should it. I guess you would most disagree with Paulo's assertion re offshore capability ? I think its fair for you to throw in your reasons.

I'm seriously trying to come to grips with the subject matter. Both sides of any subject need to be aired.

Andrew B

ps - Paulo ... I quite liked that Wilderness though she's probably a bit old. Other Schionning designs look interesting as does the Catana range. (when I have the time I'll start posting some pics.)

The age and layout of that Wilderness raises a couple of questions ... I'd have no hesitation in buying a ten or even twenty year old monohull if of Malo quality. How do the better class of cats hold up as the years pass by ? Also galley ? Up is the flavour of the century but why ? Down galley seems to make more sense from a "using the available space and opening up the salon" point of view.

Andrew B

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