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  #31  
Old 02-06-2013
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

OH, I'd like to understand why Paulo made that statement concerning blue water capability of catamarans?

I think people in your part of the world still remember the Queens Birthday Storm and how well catamarans held up in a typhoon compared to the monohulls. One would say that not one monohull was seaworthy in that storm when compared to the catamarans, wouldn't one?

Fast Forward to the present and Catalac 12Ms which are now close to 30 years old are still making Atlantic crossings (S/V Angel Louise - Florida to England via Bermuda and the Azores) or even the lightly built Gemini Catamarans who travel from California to Fiji (S/V "Tere Hau Nui"), none of these boats was larger than 40'. We haven't even scratched the surface yet. All of which lead me to believe that Paulo might have to check the dates on his books as his library might be full of pre 1980 books on sailing.

Things have changed.
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Last edited by TropicCat; 02-06-2013 at 10:36 PM.
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  #32  
Old 02-06-2013
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

CE rating is over-rated and mono biased.
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  #33  
Old 02-06-2013
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

Don't think I've ever posted on this forum but here goes.
There are plenty of smaller catamarans that are serious offshore cruisers as there are monos. Tropicats Catalac 27 comes to mind. The Catalac isn't designed to be a fast cat but at 27' very spacious, seaworthy and comfortable.
Performance wise there are fast cats and fast monos. There are also slow monos and slow cats. They both have advantages. The mono will probably point higher but the cat will run downwind on a rail with no rolling, great for trade wind passages.
We have owned 8 catamarans over the last 21 years. Guess I have a boat buying problem! Before that we owned 2 monos. We are now boatless. I would love to find another cat but as we now own a house we don't know if we can afford the type cat we like which is performance based. Maybe our next boat will be a mono......maybe not.
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  #34  
Old 02-07-2013
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

The multi vs mono thing tends to be polarizing (nearly as bad as the sportbike vs harley rivalry) but my bias has been clearly stated so you can take that into consideration. Also, while I do have an opinion, I am not qualified to discuss the seaworthiness or otherwise of cats so I won't be going there.

Speed: As far as your first post, you were comparing your Malo to a cruising cat. You didn’t identify the cat but even so, I wonder if that is a fair comparison. I love Malos but yours is an older, offshore oriented design, while most cruising cats are more modern, lighter built coastal cruisers. Maybe a more representative comparison might something like a Jeanneau 42i which has a much longer LWL and two thirds of the displacement; admittedly your Malo caries a little more sail. Would it have been faster? I think so but I’m not sure. I am sure it’s difficult to compare apples with apples when looking at monos and multis. And I’m not even sure that the Jeanneau is a fair comparison – should we maybe be comparing based on price or as cats tout their living accommodation, maybe volume or living space? In that case, assuming we are looking a similar age and build quality, we would be looking at a much longer and probably faster mono than either a 42i or a Malo.

Room: One reason I chose the Jenneau for the previous comparison is because I chartered one recently and I have also sailed a Mooring 4200 which is their version of a Leopard 42. If you need four double cabins and four heads, there’s no comparison (vs 3 cabins/2 heads) but the main cabin (saloon) and galley weren’t much different; I would argue that the Jenneau had the better galley. The cat had a much bigger cockpit but one day when friends came down for a day sail, we had eight on the Jeanneau and it didn’t feel cramped. And we rattled about in the thing when there were just two of us. Obviously, this only comparing one example of each type. So, how much space do you need?

But really and truly, all that is irrelevant! Life is too short to sail a boat that doesn’t push your buttons. I suggest you sail a cat and a modern mono that you like the look of. Then buy the one that talks to you - and sell the Malo to me.
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  #35  
Old 02-07-2013
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TropicCat View Post
OH, I'd like to understand why Paulo made that statement concerning blue water capability of catamarans?
...
Fast Forward to the present and Catalac 12Ms which are now close to 30 years old are still making Atlantic crossings (S/V Angel Louise - Florida to England via Bermuda and the Azores) or even the lightly built Gemini Catamarans who travel from California to Fiji (S/V "Tere Hau Nui"), none of these boats was larger than 40'. We haven't even scratched the surface yet. All of which lead me to believe that Paulo might have to check the dates on his books as his library might be full of pre 1980 books on sailing.

Things have changed.
I have not said that catamarans were not blue water boats. I said that size by size mono-hulls were more seaworthy and I am talking generically not referring any specific model.

Many monohulls smaller than 35 ft have circumnavigated and even one with less than 24ft had done that without stopping. That does not lead me to say that a 34ft mono-hull are indicated as a voyage boat or passage making (in what regards seaworthiness) even if obviously many had done that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bljones View Post
CE rating is over-rated and mono biased.
The theoretical work where that legislation is based was done by a huge team that included many of best European architects and even at least a well known American one. I have heard the EC ratings being accused of being too embracing in what regards category A boats (no limits) never heard anybody complaining that it was too severe regards the boats that did not reach the requirements for being considered class A.

There are good technical reasons regarding safety and stability that allows some 30ft mono-hulls to be class A boats and prevents 30ft catamarans to do the same.

Note that there is nothing that says that a 30ft monohull or multihull cannot be Class A boats. For being a class A the boat has to pass some stability and safety requirements. Simply what happens is that some monohulls can meet those conditions and to my knowledge, no 30ft catamaran has done that.

We can argue that the theoretical support for those rules is wrong, even if I never heard nobody complaining that it is too harsh regarding monohulls or multihulls, but what leaves no doubt is that the ones that made that rules were among the best specialists in Naval Architecture and knew and know much more than you or I over the subject.

Best regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 02-07-2013 at 07:30 AM.
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  #36  
Old 02-07-2013
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I have not said that catamarans were not blue water boats. I said that size by size mono-hulls were more seaworthy ....
There, you did it again. Where is your data? Just because you type this certainly doesn't make it true, now does it? Cite examples. Prove your point.... I did...

What I did in my post is cite the one major storm in which both monohulls and catamarans were involved. Every monohull was rolled in the storm. All lost their rigs. All had either injuries or deaths on board. Some of them were lost. Yet several catamarans were also caught at ground zero, all survived and none were lost or had injuries.

This is the very definition of seaworthiness.

As I said, I'm afraid your data is not up to date.

TDW .... it begins....mono vs multi...
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Last edited by TropicCat; 02-07-2013 at 07:43 AM.
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  #37  
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff54 View Post
..

Speed:.. And I’m not even sure that the Jeanneau is a fair comparison – should we maybe be comparing based on price or as cats tout their living accommodation, maybe volume or living space? In that case, assuming we are looking a similar age and build quality, we would be looking at a much longer and probably faster mono than either a 42i or a Malo.

Room: One reason I chose the Jenneau for the previous comparison is because I chartered one recently and I have also sailed a Mooring 4200 which is their version of a Leopard 42. ..The cat had a much bigger cockpit but one day when friends came down for a day sail, we had eight on the Jeanneau and it didn’t feel cramped. And we rattled about in the thing when there were just two of us. Obviously, this only comparing one example of each type. So, how much space do you need?

But really and truly, all that is irrelevant! Life is too short to sail a boat that doesn’t push your buttons. I suggest you sail a cat and a modern mono that you like the look of. Then buy the one that talks to you - and sell the Malo to me.


Geoff, that is an interesting post but you talk about speed and then miss the subject all together

You make a good point about price and I think that regarding the buyer that has a budget for a boat, price is the main limitation so in fact price would be a better pattern in what regards a measure to compare.

A new Lagoon 421 costs around 300 000 euros, vat excluded, that is more than a Jeanneau 57. If we compare both boats I don't think that the Cat neither in space or speed would take advantage.

But even so, comparing a much more expensive boat with a less expensive one, as you have done, it would be interesting to hear your comments regarding speed and sail pleasure between the two boats that you refer. You don't say anything about that.


Regards

Paulo
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  #38  
Old 02-07-2013
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TropicCat View Post
There, you did it again. Where is your data? Just because you type this certainly doesn't make it true, now does it? Cite examples. Prove your point.... I did...
....
I don't want to discuss this further but I have made my point: The EC directive that classifies monos and cats according with its suitability to sail in different sea conditions was made with the theoretical support of many of the best European Architects. According with what they consider adequate minimum stability and seaworthiness some 30ft monohulls can make it Class A boats. There are no Cats that ever had passed the stability and seaworthiness requirements to be a Class A boat (no limits).

Of course it is only an opinion, what I am saying is that their opinion has more credibility than yours or mine simply because is the opinion of experts on the subject, not one but many.

You give anecdotal evidence. That proves nothing. I have said to you that a 24ft monohull has circumnavigated non stop. The fact that a 24ft multihull had not done that proves nothing.

Regards

Paulo
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  #39  
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I don't want to discuss this further but I have made my point: The EC directive that classifies monos and cats according with its suitability to sail in different sea conditions was made with the theoretical support of many of the best European Architects. ...
I don't think so. In my opinion your premise is entirely incorrect. The EU was not in the business of severely harming a European-wide industry by developing the "class" RCD structure. Rather their intent in the whole affair was to construct a protective barrier around their boat building industry.

To use this as a hard 'list' of what is sea worthy and what is not is ingenuous and has no bearing on this subject whatsoever.
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Old 02-07-2013
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

Seems to me that modern day thinking doesn't look into the facts of the past. 25 years ago a 35' mono or cat was considered large and seaworthy, nowadays they're considered to small to be seaworthy? Are the newer designs so bad you have to make up for their compromised design with extra length? Another aspect of seaworthiness is the ability to be able to handle the boat in extreme conditions and to me the larger the boat is the harder to handle. Most boats no matter what size are usually able to take inclement weather better than their skippers.
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