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  #41  
Old 02-07-2013
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

Paolo,
Whether you "want to discuss this any further" or not is irrelevant. You pulled the pin on this grenade.

Rory And Cookie

Heavenly Twins Catamarans - Experiences

Circumnavigating nonstop is a tribute to payload and the skipper's frugal provisioning more than seaworthiness.

CE certification fails to impress me. Politics combined with protectionism doesn't exactly create an objective standard.

Lloyd's register, on the other hand, has been certifying vessels and setting standards for hundreds of years.
Bobcat catamarans were built to Llloyd's A1 standard in the early 60s.

Comparison of catamaran and monohull seaworthiness on the basis of stability testing in the CEs arbitrary and mono-biased testing is useless, because it works from a faulty premise. Instead of certifying a boat based on how it reacts to a knockdown, if weight was given to the effort it takes to knock the boat down first, and survivability after a turtle, the results would likely look very different.
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  #42  
Old 02-07-2013
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TropicCat View Post
I don't think so. In my opinion your premise is entirely incorrect. The EU was not in the business of severely harming a European-wide industry by developing the "class" RCD structure. Rather their intent in the whole affair was to construct a protective barrier around their boat building industry.

...
What you say makes no sense. The market for sailboats out of Europe it is pretty residual and European market is a huge open market. Many brands of all over the world sell the boats here, including American brands. The boats only have to be classified, as the Europeans ones, according with safety patterns regarding their use. That classification is not Political determined but technical determined.

If some political influence was made over the technicians was for those patterns to be less rigorous and not more.

Europeans are by far the bigger builders of cruising monohulls and cruising multihulls, some groups produce both types of boats. It makes no sense to say that the multihulls or monohulls are discriminated in what regards safety standards and EC classification.

That safety classification has nothing to do with outside commercial protectionism but with citizens protectionism, with Europe being what Americans like to call, a nanny state.

Here a 30ft Cat builder cannot advertise his boat as an offshore boat without any kind of supervision. For that he would have to have a boat approved as a Class A boat and that does not happen with a 30ft Cat, not because the law does not permit a 30ft Cat as an offshore boat but because the boat will not be able to pass the requirements.

The EC mandatory classification says to citizens that a boat is built with the necessary scantlings and has the stability and the seaworthiness to pass a series of requirements that a large group of NA (after many months of work) determined as the minimum needed to be certified for a given wind and sea condition, monohulls and multihulls alike (even if the criteria is different). A 30ft multihull is normally a class B boat while some 30ft monohulls can make it to A class boat.

This has nothing to do with trade protectionism but with citizens protectionism regarding someone advertising a product that cannot safely provide what has been advertised, in this case a boat safe offshore.

Of course, all classifications are arbitrary in what regards to say if a boat is or not an offshore boat, but at least the EC classification his made taking into account the opinion of many experts in the subject (Naval Architects), namely the work made by many commissions on several European states and not an undifferentiated opinion.

The boat certification is a safety ,measure not different of the many safety certifications that are mandatory in the EC and has to do only with citizens information and protection. US has also some even in lesser extent that in the EC.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 02-07-2013 at 11:05 AM.
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  #43  
Old 02-07-2013
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

Geoff .... she is not for sale.

I do intend doing a charter later this year and it will be a cat. For no other reason than I'd like to try one out.

For mine, I see where Paulo is coming from re e.g the Jeanneau 57 though I'd think that a 40' cat would be an easier boat to handle. It seems to me that sail area (or lack thereof) is a major plus for a cat.

btw ... and maybe I mentioned this earlier .... space allocation is for me one of the big letdowns with cats. So many of them have four sleeping cabins yet saloon seating that would be barely comfortable for two.

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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

fuzzy:


by integrating the cockpit and the salon there is tons of space.
Harris & Ellis Yachts (Oakville, ON)
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  #45  
Old 02-07-2013
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
What you say makes no sense. The market for sailboats out of Europe it is pretty residual and European market is a huge open market. Many brands of all over the world sell the boats here, including American brands. The boats only have to be classified, as the Europeans ones, according with safety patterns regarding their use. That classification is not Political determined but technical determined. ....
I already told you what I thought of CE ratings. However, you persisit. I took 15 minutes and Googled CE Class A catamarans. Here's what I found.

The following catamarans have EU CE Class A certification

PDQ 34
Tomcat 9.7
Antares 44
Neverlands 65
SUNREEF 62
Jeanneau Lagoon 380
Jeanneau Lagoon 440
Jeanneau Lagoon 500
Dean 380
Fusion 40
Fountaine-Pajot Mahe 36
Fountaine-Pajot Bahia 46
FOUNTAINE PAJOT ORANA 44 (Probably all of them)
Fountaine Pajot Lipari 41 Maestro (Owner's Version)
Catana 47
Catana 521

This is not a complete list. At this point I stopped looking.....as ALL current catamaran designs sold in any EU country have to be CE Certified. From the looks of what I found, Class A is rather common.

I think what's relevant is what's already been stated in this thread. The Lloyds of London certification is much more important.
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Last edited by TropicCat; 02-07-2013 at 06:44 PM.
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  #46  
Old 02-07-2013
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

Too true Jonesy but she'd be a mite chilly come winter.

This is an Australian design the Seawind 1250. I've been critical of these boats in the past, the ones I have been on were to my eyes caravan like but I do like this layout.



SW1250s have crossed Bass Strait and the Tasman Sea .... neither is for the faint hearted .... yet I had thought of the SW as coastal only.

Looking at her I'd think she'd be very susceptible to overloading.
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Last edited by tdw; 02-07-2013 at 07:27 PM.
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Old 02-07-2013
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TropicCat View Post
I already told you what I thought of CE ratings. However, you persisit. I took 15 minutes and Googled CE Class A catamarans. Here's what I found.

The following catamarans have EU CE Class A certification

PDQ 34
Tomcat 9.7
Antares 44
Neverlands 65
SUNREEF 62
Jeanneau Lagoon 380
Jeanneau Lagoon 440
Jeanneau Lagoon 500
Dean 380
Fusion 40
Fountaine-Pajot Mahe 36
Fountaine-Pajot Bahia 46
FOUNTAINE PAJOT ORANA 44 (Probably all of them)
Fountaine Pajot Lipari 41 Maestro (Owner's Version)
Catana 47
Catana 521

This is not a complete list. At this point I stopped looking.....as ALL current catamaran designs sold in any EU country have to be CE Certified. From the looks of what I found, Class A is rather common.

I think what's relevant is what's already been stated in this thread. The Lloyds of London certification is much more important.
I think the Gemini also has the EU Ce class A certification
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  #48  
Old 02-07-2013
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdw View Post
Too true Jonesy but she'd be a mite chilly come winter.

This is an Australian design the Seawind 1250. I've been critical of these boats in the past, the ones I have been on were to my eyes caravan like but I do like this layout.



SW1250s have crossed Bass Strait and the Tasman Sea .... neither is for the faint hearted .... yet I had thought of the SW as coastal only.

Looking at her I'd think she'd be very susceptible to overloading.
Galley down would be a deal killer for me. I also would need an owners version where on hull is dedicated to owner statesroom and head.
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

Oh, I see that port hull is owners....

But afthwardships berth is not my preference in a cat....
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Old 02-07-2013
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

We have owned two Seawind 1000's and absolutely loved them. I'm not sure about the 1250 but the 1000 is very well built, has a beautiful sea motion and is quite quick. I think Lagoons definetly have their place in the catamaran world but to me would be the caravans of catamarans.
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