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  #61  
Old 02-07-2013
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

Basically all of this 'chatter' is a primary reason why catamaran owners don't get into these discussions with monohull owners.

Not because we (I'm a ex-cat owner, I count as 'we') can't debate the issue, but instead because there is no resolution.
It's apples and oranges - something most monohull owners can understand when it comes to discussing different types of monohull - although even that has some 'fire' to it (witness the full keel thread here).

Some folks though, they just can't come around. I've been told that a catamaran isn't a sailboat by people I've respected, I've been told a boat designed to cruise instead of race is not a sailboat, that instead only boats that are designed to maximize performance are truly sailboats.

We've seen some of that here, in only 6 pages of posts.

I'm pretty sure that when Woody from Latt's and Att's did his circumnavigation in a coastal POS ( IIRC a Cal 27) he didn't worry that the experts said a 40 foot was needed, he didn't care that a CE certification wasn't issued. That piece of paper was good for TP, but didn't float the boat.

I'm not here to argue, some are. Have fun with this, I'm out.
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  #62  
Old 02-07-2013
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucklesR View Post
Basically all of this 'chatter' is a primary reason why catamaran owners don't get into these discussions with monohull owners.

Not because we (I'm a ex-cat owner, I count as 'we') can't debate the issue, but instead because there is no resolution.
It's apples and oranges - something most monohull owners can understand when it comes to discussing different types of monohull - although even that has some 'fire' to it (witness the full keel thread here).

Some folks though, they just can't come around. I've been told that a catamaran isn't a sailboat by people I've respected, I've been told a boat designed to cruise instead of race is not a sailboat, that instead only boats that are designed to maximize performance are truly sailboats.

We've seen some of that here, in only 6 pages of posts.

I'm pretty sure that when Woody from Latt's and Att's did his circumnavigation in a coastal POS ( IIRC a Cal 27) he didn't worry that the experts said a 40 foot was needed, he didn't care that a CE certification wasn't issued. That piece of paper was good for TP, but didn't float the boat.

I'm not here to argue, some are. Have fun with this, I'm out.
I like both multis and monos. I can see advantages to both and appreciate both but I'm a multihuller at heart. I think this has actually been one of the most civilized mono multi conversations I've been in!
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Old 02-07-2013
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

I agree.
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  #64  
Old 02-08-2013
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

Originally Posted by PCP
T.....When the boats are certified as class A it comes in the technical file:
[/COLOR]
http://www.catamarans-fountaine-pajo...eng_lip045.pdf
http://www.cata-lagoon.com/site_agen...re_09_2012.pdf

Quote:
Originally Posted by TropicCat View Post
I see you located the catamaran CE class A documents and take it that you've withdrawn your comment?
I guess you never understood what i have said. I do like cats and I did not said that they where not offshore boats. What I have said was:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
..
Putting it another way: A good 30ft monohull can pass EC certification as a Class A boat, I don't believe a 30ft cat would be able to do that.
.....
I have not said that catamarans were not blue water boats. I said that size by size mono-hulls were more seaworthy and I am talking generically not referring any specific model.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TropicCat View Post
[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]
The CE class A rating for the Tomcat 9.7 is here:
TomCat Boats Designer & Manufacturer of Exceptional Catamarans

Which of course means that a 32 foot catamaran is also CE class A certified. Apparently a cat can not only manage it, but manage it with less LOA than a monohull.

What was your point again?
My point was the same from the beginning. The Tomcat 9.7 is a great 32ft cat but not a 30ft boat. It is not also the typical cat with lots of interior volume and standing height. It is low and wide and that's why he is more stable and seaworthy than the typical cat:





The typical 33ft cat,the ones that dominate the market, with a good height and interior space, are Class B boats, like this nice one:





As I said I was talking generically. If we go for particular cases (not mainstream designs) we can have Class A mono-hulls with a lot less than 30fts, like the Fisher 25 or the Vancouver 28, just to mention two.

Fisher 25 - Introduction

Vancouver 28 - Introduction

Let me tell you again to make it clear: I am not saying that Cats are not offshore boats, quite the contrary. What I am saying from the beginning is that generically, size by size, monohulls have stability characteristics that make them more seaworthy.

One a monohull you can get knock down and come back with no problem, you can get rolled and with some luck still have a functional engine and even if the rig is lost you can jury rig. On a cat you can't so it is normal that a bigger stability and bigger safety margin would be considered as a safety measure. It is what it is done in the ERCD regarding Classifying Monohulls and Cats regarding the sea and wind conditions they are suited to navigate.

I hope this time It is clear

I do like cats and the only reason I don't consider them is because a fast cat with what I consider an adequate safety margin for offshore work, it is very expensive, much more than a less faster mono-hull equally suited for offshore work.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 02-08-2013 at 01:09 PM.
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  #65  
Old 02-08-2013
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

I think ultimately I'm in agreement with Paulo.

Nothing wrong with cats, I'd be happy to own one but cost is the real issue.

We already own what is comparatively speaking a fairly expensive mono for her loa but even if we were to sell her we'd need at least her price again to buy a suitable cat.

Yes there are cheaper cats than USD$400,000 but not I fear to a build quality and fitout level of a Malo.

I still intend giving a charter a go later in the year. Maybe that will convince me one way or the other though the Wombet is adamant that mono is the go. Deep down inside that woman is somewhat conservative. Me I still like the idea of that big stable platform and even if not as fast as some multi lovers might like to believe under most circumstances when simply cruising the multi will tend to be just a wee bit quicker.

Me, I'm keeping my mind open.

Andrew B
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  #66  
Old 02-08-2013
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

I think it's hard to compare the fitout of the mono vs multi. A well fitout mono will have acres of gorgeous solid wood were the multi will have thin wood veneers over some type of structural core. That would be for bulkheads, furnishings and even draws. Really keeps the weight down.
Before we bought our first cat in 1992 I talked to an insurance agent from Lloyd's Of London concerning the cost of multi insurance. He said they had less claims and considered cats to be more seaworthy so the rates would be lower than a mono. This held true a few years ago as the entity that tracks claims for the insurance companies came up with the same conclusion, cats being a slightly better risk. The surprising fact that they came up with was that you had a 7 times greater risk of injury on a mono as compared to a multi.
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Old 02-09-2013
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucklesR View Post
Gemini's have for a long, long time been Class A certified. I've been to Portugal visiting Alex on Giulietta and seen them there.
4 that I know of of them have circumnavigated, many have done trans-oceanic voyages.
Like any guy will tell you, it's not about the length, it's how you use it.
Others would say it's both length and beam as well as how its used.
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  #68  
Old 02-09-2013
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucklesR View Post
Gemini's have for a long, long time been Class A certified. I've been to Portugal visiting Alex on Giulietta and seen them there.
4 that I know of of them have circumnavigated, many have done trans-oceanic voyages.
Like any guy will tell you, it's not about the length, it's how you use it.
I don't know if they are or not Class A certified and if not, if they are certifiable. I have searched and found nothing about that and that's a pretty good advertising piece of information. Maybe you have found it?

Having done circumnavigations means nothing. I have said that a guy with a 22ft mono-hull has circumnavigated nonstop and a Corsair 27 had done that also (I saw the boat once in Dusseldorf). Both boats are not Class A boats.

As we have seen it is possible to certificate relatively small multihulls as A Class boats. Tropiccat gave the example of the 32ft Tomcat and I can give the example of the Dragonfly 32. Both are not the typical mainstream multihull.

Anyway I am sure that even if certifiable in class A these type of boats are pretty limit in what regards the needed stability criteria to be certified.

You can also circumnavigate or cross oceans in a mono-hull that passes closely the stability requirements for a Class A boat and we would be talking about boats like the Elan 31 or the Vancouver 28 but even if the boats have offshore potential I would not choose one to cross the Atlantic, much less to circumnavigate.

Class A stability requirements for classifying boats as no limited boats represent a minimum that many find to be too low and a minority finds also that boats that don't pass those requirements are still suitable to cross oceans.

The safety and stability limits each one is willing to accept in what regards a boat to cross oceans, I mean for you or me to cross oceans is a personal choice and I would say it should be an informed one and that's the point of the EC classification regarding seaworthiness.

Personally I would say that what makes it comfortable for me, regarding mainstream design, in what regards monohulls is a 38/40ft boat. In what regards multihulls I would say 42/45ft. Of course that is a personal evaluation based on the risks I am disposed to take. Any small boat crossing an Ocean represents a risk, smaller or bigger depending on the boat. But everyday we take risks and without have a notion of it, we are always choosing what is acceptable and what is not.

I am talking about mainstream designs. Some boats, monohulls or multihulls can by designed to improve slightly its stability characteristics regarding equally sized designs. It is the case of the Dragonflyies or the Tomcat that have the stability of a slightly bigger mainstream designed multihulls.

I would say that in what regards improving a boat stability for its length has a bigger scope in monohulls than in multihulls because multihulls rely exclusively on beam and weight in what regards stability while monohulls rely also in a significantly lowered CG through ballast deep on a keel.

That's why size is so important in what regards a multihull seaworthiness.

Jobberone said all that in a much simpler way:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jobberone View Post
Others would say it's both length and beam as well as how its used.
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Last edited by PCP; 02-09-2013 at 07:07 AM.
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  #69  
Old 02-09-2013
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

I have found two sites on the Internet that state the class a certification of the Gemini.
Seems as if you PCP have a pretty good idea of the size and type of cat you would consider to be ocean going. Can you relate your experiences with the diffrent catamarans and the voyages you have taken on these boats that make up your opinion?
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Old 02-10-2013
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smj View Post
..
Seems as if you PCP have a pretty good idea of the size and type of cat you would consider to be ocean going. Can you relate your experiences with the diffrent catamarans and the voyages you have taken on these boats that make up your opinion?
yes, I have a pretty good idea of what I will accept not as safe, but as comfortable in what regards safety for Ocean voyaging. As I have said it regards only me and others may have higher or lower thresholds regarding that.

Let me also point that I am refereeing to what is offered today as mainstream market regarding cruising boats and not ones prepared specially for offshore work.

Regarding that knowledge the central core does not comes from sailing different sizes and types of sailboats. The experience anyone can have regarding that is limited unless we are talking of boat testers of very few magazines that are testing sailboats at the rate of 3 or 4 for month on the last 20 years. That knowledge comes from reading their reports, for some experience in sailing and most of all for the analyses that NA make regarding each model and their suitability for sea conditions.

For many years I have an interest in boat design, monohull and multihull alike and I have been following their development. Particularly in what regards multihull I am attracted by their superior speed (when they are designed with that in mind) and I have been following closely their development in what regards size, stability and seaworthiness simply because I would like to have one. I have been also following for many years monohulls and multihulls accidents and I have a pretty good idea of what had caused them.

It is this knowledge and my own evaluation of the risks I am willing to take that permits me to have an informed opinion of the monohulls and multihulls I am willing to use offshore. most of them, on the size I have referred, would have to be modified in what regards rigging to meet my personal criteria. But as I have said, that is just a personal criteria and suits only me. There are many that circumnavigated with smaller boats, multihulls and monohulls alike, and certainly fell that their boats suits them well.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 02-10-2013 at 02:59 PM.
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