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  #81  
Old 02-20-2013
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrna View Post
Questions.
How much deck clearance is really necessary?
What is a good beam to length ratio?
Is a traveler really necessary on a cat since they don't point well?
I think you have to tell us more before anyone can advise you. Are you asking us about a Friday night around the 'cans' type of boat? Or a cruising boat? Also, sailing is sailing. Of course a traveler is a necessary mainsail control. I sail to 35 degrees or higher depending upon sea state and wind speed. Yes cats point. Some do it better than others.

It might be time for you to sail a few boats to get the feel for what the 'numbers' actually mean.
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  #82  
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

I'm a hobie cat guy through and through. Grew up sailing 16s an 18s. Racing and off the beach. They are- in point of fact- the bee's knees. However- the cruising cats I've been on which are a leopard 38 and a manta I believe- and 95% of the ones I see on the hook etc have a few design "idiosyncrasies" that I find unpalatable. For instance- yes, they seem to point poorly. Really poorly- like it's all a reach. A close reach maybe but- you can't close haul when the head sail is sheeted outside the shrouds- as it typically is- on those beamy ass platforms. Additionally- most seem to have one helm station- with what I will generously refer to as "limited visibility". And how about the fact that you can't see your sails very well- or in some cases at all from the helm?

I "hear" they pound- but I don't know. All I have experiences is a crappy view from the helm on a boat that won't go to weather.

When I was 9 my dad and I were double trapped on a hobie 16 when he buried the lee hull and we pitch poles. It was quite a yard sale. And pretty terrifying for the 9 year old in board... I bet pitchpolling a 40 footer would be absolutely hellacious. But I wouldn't even let that thought enter the equation if I were shopping for one. I DID see a cat the other day in Vero beach that looked pretty sick. Dual helm stations- no hard top over the "cockpit" to obscure your view of the sails- AND a genoa sheeted inside the shrouds. It looked way more like it was designed for sailing rather than designed for entertaining on the hook.

There- all that typing and I hit what I was trying to say finally. To me- cruising cats typically don appear to be designed with sailing as the primary purpose. They seem built primarily for large groups of people to have something to float on whilst drinking and eating. If wrong about your cat- please take me sailing and prove it!! Haha.

Alot of them look like Buick regal station wagons with a mast too- not very easy on Los ojos
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Old 02-20-2013
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by c. breeze View Post
...For instance- yes, they seem to point poorly. Really poorly- like it's all a reach. A close reach maybe but- you can't close haul when the head sail is sheeted outside the shrouds- as it typically is- on those beamy ass platforms. Additionally- most seem to have one helm station- with what I will generously refer to as "limited visibility". And how about the fact that you can't see your sails very well- or in some cases at all from the helm?

I "hear" they pound- but I don't know. All I have experiences is a crappy view from the helm on a boat that won't go to weather.

....
There- all that typing and I hit what I was trying to say finally. To me- cruising cats typically don appear to be designed with sailing as the primary purpose. They seem built primarily for large groups of people to have something to float on whilst drinking and eating. ..

Alot of them look like Buick regal station wagons with a mast too- not very easy on Los ojos
No all cats are alike even if in most cruiser ones accommodation take precedence over sailing. If you want cats that point relatively well, start looking if they have long daggerboards.

Of course, only racing ones are designed with only sailing purpose in mind but there are some that reach a good compromise. Most cat clients want them not by the speed or sailing advantage but because they don't heel and have more space than a monohull, so for those the compromises goes toward space in detriment of sailing potential.

There are for all tastes and not wrong or right here providing one knows what is buying. The important is the client to be satisfied

Regards

Paulo
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  #84  
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by c. breeze View Post
...There- all that typing and I hit what I was trying to say finally. To me- cruising cats typically don appear to be designed with sailing as the primary purpose. They seem built primarily for large groups of people to have something to float on whilst drinking and eating. If wrong about your cat- please take me sailing and prove it!! Haha.

Alot of them look like Buick regal station wagons with a mast too- not very easy on Los ojos
You don't buy a catamaran for the way she looks, and no matter what kind of boat you sail, you don't close haul on purpose after you pass the age of 40 as the boat will pound you into the deck. When you pass 60 years old, I don't care if you're sailing a 38' Leopard or a 30' Cape Dory, sailing close hauled has about the same attraction as drinking 100% grain alcohol straight up and still warm from a bootleg still. You can do it, but you know it's going to hurt you. While we are on the subject, it takes time to learn to sail any boat. Once you learn how to sail a big catamaran, and tune the rigging there's usually no issue with pointing within reason.

Catamarans are about comfort, and a cruising cat has about as much in common with a Hobie Cat as the average monohull does when compared with a 12 meter yacht. Yeah, they all have sails....but..

I have a marina full of monohull sailors and I'm one of the very few Catamarans. We sail together, we raft up together. These are my friends. Guess which boat is the center of social activities? Guess which is the center boat in raft ups regardless of the fact that one of the monohulls is a 45' Columbia. After years of sailing together all have seen the light and are looking for catamarans, as they know what all experienced sailors know. That unless you own a trailer sailor, 99% of a boat's life is at anchor or at the dock and just 1% is spent with her sails up. Yet when you get around to sailing there is no better boat in the Caribbean than a catamaran. They redefined the term 'island hopping'.

If you don't want a cruising catamaran or can't cough up the $100K++ for a boat, by all means choose your own slice of freedom. It's why there are so many boats models out there.

Just saying...
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  #85  
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
No all cats are alike even if in most cruiser ones accommodation take precedence over sailing. If you want cats that point relatively well, start looking if they have long daggerboards.
Personally, I've sailed all kinds of Cruising catamarans, some with center boards, some without. Generally speaking you are correct. A catamaran with boards will outperform and out point boats with fixed keels / no keels and God yes are they fun to sail. However, this comes with a price.

A catamaran caught in a bad gust of wind with her boards down, can trip over her boards. These are the boats that capsize and are the great photo op monohull guys post on sailing forums (Mackinac Race Capsize). Boats with sacrificial keels or "S" shaped hulls like my Catalac and the new boat just introduced at the 2013 Miami boat show designed by Morrelli and Melvin (designer of the America cup boats) are designed to slip sideways in a gust of wind. They don't lift a hull. They don't capsize. They also don't perform as well.

For a cruiser, think about this. Do you want to be at the helm 24/7 with one hand on your mainsheet? Or do you want to put her on cruise control and chase the admiral around the cockpit? At age 30 I loved hobie cats. I'm older, I'm wiser and I'm 40 lbs heavier, and now I don't.

Different strokes for different folks.
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  #86  
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TropicCat View Post
...
For a cruiser, think about this. Do you want to be at the helm 24/7 with one hand on your mainsheet? Or do you want to put her on cruise control and chase the admiral around the cockpit? At age 30 I loved hobie cats. I'm older, I'm wiser and I'm 40 lbs heavier, and now I don't.

Different strokes for different folks.
Yes, we agree, different boats for different people. if I had a cat it would be for the speed and performance, so it would not be like the one you would favor.

In extreme conditions and bare poles all daggerboard cats can pull daggers up and will be in the same condition as your boat. Some daggerboard cats are among the safer offshore cruising boats to sail and also the faster. For instance this one (2013 European multihull):

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Last edited by PCP; 02-20-2013 at 08:46 PM.
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  #87  
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
...In extreme conditions and bare poles all daggerboard cats can pull daggers up and will be in the same condition as your boat. Some daggerboard cats are among the safer offshore cruising boats to sail and also the faster. For instance this one (2013 European monohull):
No we don't agree at all. And why are you referencing a 2013 monohull in a catamaran conversation? Surely we can agree that when things go bad, they go bad all at once?

Imagine .... You're sailing your performance catamaran in the dark of night, boards down, no moon and no one could possibly see the squall that is about to hit you. Yet bang! Out of nowhere 80 knot winds slam into the boat and you 'performance' catamaran guys are thrown into the water as the boat turns turtle. What? Did you think that squall was going to text you before it hit the boat so you could have been ready? There's no time to pull those damn boards up.

I can't imagine any circumstances where dagger board cats are safer. All the data simply says the opposite. For races...of course and with a professional crew that know the risks involved, certainly, but not for cruisers.

One last note on this. Most cruisers who buy catamarans are mid aged couples who would never be able to control a dagger board cat in a gust. It's a catamaran... the sails never unload as the boats don't heel, and crews have to be properly trained to sail these boats. It's why my mast is twice the thickness of the same sized monohull and I have 10 oz cruising sails. Board down catamarans won't slide as those boards keep them on rails. Doubling of wind speed increases forces on sails and winches by a factor of x 4. In 80 knots there will literally be thousands of pounds of force. I've had a furler explode (bearings) in just 40 knots.

There are no knock downs on a catamaran, we stand tall and take it like men. The crew has to know what they are doing and the boat has to cooperate or no one comes out of this alive. I strongly suggest you try it sometime before recommending this course to others.
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  #88  
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TropicCat View Post
No we don't agree at all. And why are you referencing a 2013 monohull in a catamaran conversation? Surely we can agree that when things go bad, they go bad all at once?

Imagine .... You're sailing your performance catamaran in the dark of night, boards down, no moon and no one could possibly see the squall that is about to hit you. Yet bang! Out of nowhere 80 knot winds slam into the boat and you 'performance' catamaran guys are thrown into the water as the boat turns turtle. What? Did you think that squall was going to text you before it hit the boat so you could have been ready? There's no time to pull those damn boards up.
.....
I strongly suggest you try it sometime before recommending this course to others.
I have edited the post. Funny mistake. I meant yo say that was the boat that won the 2013 European boat of the year contest on the Multihull class and by mistake wrote Monohull.

After all it seems that it is you that think that some of the most respected voyage offshore cats are unsafe

Came on, everybody knows that Outremer is one of the cats that circumnavigated more times and a favorite in what regards sailors that favors Cats for long voyages. Many experienced sailors have chosen them to circumnavigate and do extensive voyage.

Do you think they are wrong? I would say that they, like me, don't favor the same kind of cat you prefer for voyaging. Nothing wrong in preferring other type of cats or boats, but saying that cats that use daggerboards are not safe makes no sense. Any cat can be capsized by the wind in the sails if the sailor does not have good sense.

Maybe you never heard about Outremer? Here you have a sail test by Charles Doane (Charles Doane is SAIL's Executive Editor) on a boat that was replaced by the one I was talking about, the 49:

I've done two transatlantics on cats....What intrigued me most about it were the twin carbon-fiber tillers aft on each hull. I'd never steered a cat this size with a tiller before, and I was very curious to find out what it was like.
.....
For me the bottom line on any boat evaluation is always very simple: would I like to own one? Make that a big affirmative on the Outremer 49. I'll take one, please. I'd love to be out there on those tillers, steering through some island-studded turquoise water.


Or perhaps what Alvah Simon says in "Cruising world magazine" about the 49?:

Outremer has been building multihulls for 27 years, making it a pioneer in the field. The company is a dedicated bluewater specialist with a straightforward motto: “Seaworthy, Fast, Simple.”

Alvah Simon - About | Facebook

Or maybe why the boat that I have posted, the Outremer 5X, was chosen has European multihull of the year?

The Swedish tester says: "An offshore long distance voyager, fast but always safe".

The Danish tester says: " As a voyage boat the Outremer 5x is a dream ".

So, as you can see I am not alone into endorsing this boat as a safe offshore voyage cat. It is an opinion that is shared by almost all cat sailors.

Just look at some of the Outremer that voyaging in far away places and circumnavigating and you are going to see that they are sailed by families, not racers. There are not many but the ones that exist are not at the marina

Liladhoc's Blog

Sailing Around the World on Teulu

Le blog de marick

DAY TO DAY :: Singa CATAMARAN

Journal :: Teoula III

le voyage de zephyr

Le Furibard

With Blue Bie around the World

AbraCatabra.com | Accueil

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Le Voyage D'OFF COURSE

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Imagine ... Une famille en catamaran autour du monde

http://www.untempspourunreve.com

Outremer 45 ŗ vendre Ľ Outremer 45 occasion

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I have edited the post. Funny mistake. I meant yo say that was the boat that won the 2013 European boat of the year contest on the Multihull class and by mistake wrote Monohull.

After all it seems that it is you that think that some of the most respected voyage offshore cats are unsafe

Came on, everybody knows that Outremer is one of the cats that circumnavigated more times and a favorite in what regards sailors that favors Cats for long voyages.
OK on your typo

As for the Outremer, what can I say except that I'm stunned. These are fast boats. No doubt about it. And they are famous too. I agree.

But Paulo my friend you are now talking the rarefied air of $1 million boats, which is a far cry from where this conversation began.

A friend of mine did an Atlantic crossing last year from Florida to England in a 30 year old Catalac 12M (S/V Angel Louise), which sells for roughly 15% of the price of the Outremer you suggest and is a safer boat. Not faster. I said safer. This couple is in their 70's and had a very nice trip across the Atlantic. After several months in England, they sailed to France, demasted the boat and experienced a bit of the French canals and lastly managed to travel to the Danube a delightful river which they motored southeast for 2,872 km (1,785 mi), passing through four Central European capitals before arriving at the Black Sea via the Danube Delta in Romania. I think they have to head home soon as they have used all the time allowed in the EU specified in their visa.

Try that with a $1 million Outremer! (They are too wide for the canals)
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I think it's cute that the argument you address first is that you don't buy based in looks- which was only an afterthought in my post. I referenced the hobies only to support that I have no ideological issue with multihulls, however I appreciate you instructing me on the "subtle" differences between the two types at any rate. I am also gratified that you made no effort to refute my claim that on most cruising cats "sailing" is an afterthought in the design and layout. I suppose I should be further thankful to you for going on to support my claim- via the 99% / 1% argument.

All that said- I guess I could for about 3k build or buy a deck boat to chase the admiral around and to raft up with my buddies- and thanks to the wonders Of Craig's list and ikea furnish it in pretty high style.

I guess if I had 100k to throw at a boat I might do that- and drop 90k on sailbaot designed to sail- and use the other 7k to host a big party on the party barge for all my friends and family. Or the yacht club.

I admire your passion for the boats you've chosen. And it's awesome that you- like me- have found suitable platforms for your sailing pleasure.

I do get curious when I see mention Of all the time it takes to learn how to sail a boat in one sentence- and all this talk of autopilot and admiral chasing basically throughout. People don't buy these boats to learn how to get the most ou of them. They buy them because they have an equivalent number of electrical outlets as there home- and more square footage than most 2 bedroom apts. if learning how to sail the boat were my goal- you Better believe I'd want a reasonable view of the sails- a reasonable view from the helm- and yeah. A sheet ( o winch handle) in my hand a pretty good bit- you know - trimming those sails I could see while feeling that helm.

I'm sure you can sail circles around me. And I'm also sure I can sail circles around (insert random high percentage here- call it 3/4) of cruising cat people because I am actually a sailor- and tend to desire being in tune with the boat more than anything else while I'm sailing. You know- its not an afterthought. But it might be just the while newness of it all- I've only been sailing for 27 years.

The depressing thing about this whole conversation is the implied inevitability that one day ill lose interest in the sailing and reorder my priorities for how to spend time on my boat.

I better retreat to the crew wanted thread that mentions the kids sailin j24s so the old farts have a ready source of up and coming crew. I prefer the idea that even when I'm 70- if I make it that far- that sailing will still be my primary incentive for being on a sailboat.

I also found the S Hull / sacrificial keel design intricacy interesting. I get the sacraficial keel- but what is the s hull- and how does it work? You can explain it or provide links- either way. Thanks.
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