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Lets have a chat about multis.

23K views 115 replies 24 participants last post by  outbound 
#1 ·
I'm guessing that any one of us who spends any time at all out and about is very much aware of the ever increasing number of multi hulls.

Now for the puropse of this thread lets ignore the very high tech racers and probably the tris and have a good look at true cruising catamarans. What is to like ? What is to dislike ?

The way I see it cats have two , pretty obvious, advantages over mono and that is comfort and speed. Now OK, your yahoo whizbang monos such as the amazing Pogos will give any cruising multi a serious run for their money but it does seem to me that for intents and purposes a cat will flog a mono over the ground. Or will it ? Hard on the wind there is probably not a lot in it but reaching it is surely a different story.

As an example of this, on our recent trip we left Port Stephens in company with a 40 odd foot cat. Close hauled we took opposing tacks for the first hour or so and when we crossed we'd pretty much held our own but then the cat eased off onto a reach while we maintained close hauled. An hour later they had beaten us into the anchorage by half an hour.

Now fairly obviously, cats have their shortcomings. Mooring and docking costs are pretty obvious examples. We stayed at two marinas while away, each an overnighter. One, full service and very fancy was $185.00 for the 24hrs but that included a courtesy car and the fanciest bathrooms I have ever seen in a marina, the other a more typical example in a less touristic port was $50.00. Double that for a multi.

Now .... for a cruising cat I'm thinking 40' or thereabouts would be the go. I've heard that under 40' there are comfort issues. True or not ? Much bigger than 40' and the thing is going to be ridiculously large for two people, hell even a forty foot cat has more than enough room for us.

So lets look at a few options, discuss (I know its been done before but what the hell, lets go round again) the pros and cons. Examples Leopard v Lagoon ? Chalk and cheese perhaps but just what does the Lagoon give to the Leopard or vice versa ?

anywho ... topic is here for discussion. I'll be very interested to get any feedback.

...... and no the Womboat is not on the market, I'm just interested in the subject of cats. :)
 
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#2 ·
I think the performance issue is a debatable one, but it depends greatly on the boats themselves and the point of sail. On a 50nm passage Guadeloupe to Antigua some years back, close reaching a 40' cat didn't put enough time on our 37 ft mono to get into harbour prior to our catching up as the doused sail outside. As you noted hard on the wind you gave up very little yourselves.

I think many cruising cats suffer from overloading and that's what takes the edge off their performance.

Other issues that seem to come up include the clearance of the midsection- apparently certain models are known to pound in ocean waves as the mid "belly" doesn't have enough clearance (but that's anecdotal, have not seen that) I'm sure another factor in the apparent lack of performance could well be the skill levels of the (primarily) charter crews -I'm sure that even an experienced mono sailor may struggle to get a cat up to speed..

The ability to provide multiple relatively private cabins makes it a no brainier for charter operators, I suppose.. And in a quiet area like the BVIs they probably make more sense than for island hopping further south and east.

Our Caribbean cruising friends were avid longtime multi sailors... But chose a mono for themselves.. That spoke volumes to me.
 
#3 ·
Cats have had me intrigued to the point of pulling the trigger on building two. With our limited slip length, the only way to have a larger more amenity-filled boat on the Dock is to go wider.
As I got knee-deep in designing what we wanted, i learned a great deal about hull design and dynamics- length: beam ratio, optimum bridgedeck height above waterline, etc.
For coastal cruising, or living aboard/daysailing/occasional cruising, a cat is a great fit. but the lighter payload does have some impact on long-range voyaging. A Flicka can conceivably carry the tankage to cross oceans comfortably- a 25 foot cat has a much tighter margin for payload.
The motion is different. With less draft, less ballast and less keel, it is gonna be quicker, more noticeable on shorter boats than bigger cats.

Before getting too deep into building a 25' trainwreck, i decided to warm up by tackling a Puddlecat:



It will be interesting to see how it compares, performance-wise, to the plywood dinghy i built that is about the same LOA.

And maybe some of the old wives tales of cats pitchpoling and turning turtle with any swell may be finally put to rest.

 
#5 · (Edited)
There are cats and cats. Last summer when we were beating against the wind my wife asked me: Where are they going? She was referring to a brand new Mooring 40ft cat. I had some difficulty into convincing her that they were doing the same as us, meaning tacking against the wind. The reason of her disbelieve was the very different angle: Maybe 27º to 40º?

We pass all afternoon tacking against the wind and when we were approaching the destination, I mean only two tacks to go, they passed by us, motoring directly against the wind:D...and I guess they were doing that for a while.

There are faster cats and slow cats but I don't know why you think that the trimarans should not be considered. If I had the money I would prefer a trimaran. Look at this one:



Regarding Cats I agree with what you say, just adding that distinction between slow and fast Cats. I would also add this:

For the same size multihulls are more expensive than monohulls and less seaworthy. They have also more interior space.

Regarding seaworthiness I am not one of those that consider cats unsafe, what I mean is that a 40ft monohull, generally speaking, is an offshore boat while a 40ft cat is also but by a lesser margin. The Cats made for offshore work are considerable bigger than 40ft and that makes them even more expensive as an option as an offshore boat.

Trimarans have, regarding size, a better seaworthiness. I would fell more comfortable offshore on that 35ft Dragonfly than in any 40ft cat.

But one of these babies:





Is pretty much a perfect offshore cruiser. To be comparable in space and performance we would need a 80ft monohull and the prices should not be very different.

....
 
#6 ·
Cat vs. Mono - The Great Debate | Sail Feed

I assumed most people have seen that by now. But it's an experienced well-written opinion.

Aside from buy-in price and docking price, and suspect build quality on random models, catamarans seem like the way to go for cruising.

Now, if you live in a small sailing area and just go out for day sails, maybe you want to go slower (on a mono) so you don't run out of space. That's the problem I occurred with my old beach cat.
 
#20 ·
The Bumfuzzle article cited and the above posts sum it up. If money is no object then a big cruising multi wins the day. This would be music to my Dad's ears. Back in the early 80's he was an early adapter with a home built wooden tri.

But multis are just too darn expensive for us. The only way we are going cruising in our 30s and 40s is on a well built, good looking, classic mono.

I love our mono but growing up in the South Pacific multis seemed more classic to me than monos. All the old trading sailing craft were multis. All the old fishing sailing craft were lakatois (outriggers). Monos are just more classic to Europeans. Some of the greatest sailors of all times - the Melanesians and Polynesians - used multis.

Sent from my GT-P3113 using Tapatalk 2
 
#7 ·
Sorry but cats have got no soul! :p

I wanted to like them, I really did but after a week on a Moorings cat I couldn't wait to get back to the tactile enjoyment of healing with the wind. I can certainly appreciate the advantages, especially when you are anchored but to actually sail - a bit numb - a bit like going to bed with your boots on... it just doesn't feel right.
 
#9 ·
Fast .... there are conflicting stories re cat performance. Undoubtedly the weight issue has something to do with it of course but if that is the case then we need to disqualify any light weight monohull screamers for the same reason. One of the areas that piqued my interest was the realisation that even in LA/Cruising mode we are much less heavily loaded than e.g a family boat or a charter boat of say 6 - 8 people. All in all then, it would appear that at worst a cat is marginally faster than a mono but with scads more space for the crew and a seemingly more comfortable ride. Most certainly more comfortable at anchor.

I guess that heaviest weight carried by a cruiser would be liquid, fuel and water. Fuel is not going to change. Maybe being easier to drive in light air would enable a cat to keep sailing longer but probably not a lot in it compared to a mono. Watermakers otoh reduce the need for overly large water tanks. I'd also think that compared to say the Womboat a similarly sized cat would have less sail area, ergo less weight to lug around. Ground tackle not likely to change. So I'm thinking that for a two person boat weight may not be the issue it might be.

Lastly , when you say you mates chose mono over multi, how much of that was budget ? As I mentioned in a pm to you earlier on to go from the Womboat to a cat would require the Womboats asking price at least doubled.


Jonesy .... the way I am looking at this is that our cruising is almost certainly going to be in no more than passages of less than a couple of weeks, maybe at worst a month. Its not as if we, or for that matter most cruisers spend all that much time away from civilisation of some kind or another. In our month away we did one major and two minor shops, so we were able to sit out at anchor for most of the time, spend probably only four or five days actually sailing and a few days berthed in a marina. Had we not gone into one port where one can only berth, no anchorage, to visit some old friends we'd have only spent a single full day in a marina. Outside of civilisation provided you can make your own bread and catch yourself some fish/squid/shellfish you really do not need to load up with tons of provisions. Ergo, I'm thinking as per what I was saying to Fast, that the overloading thing, if you think it through, may well be overstated, particularly if you are just that little bit careful when it comes to over buying before you set out. I know this is hard for many Americans to grasp but you can actually buy toilet paper outside of NYC or LA.

It seems to me that far to many of us insist on a boat that will go round Cape Horn in a blizzard yet rarely, if ever venture out of home waters. Even then its likely we'll be following the sun. Few cruisers venture into iceberg territory.

The roll over and die argument agin cats has always felt a wee bit iffy to me. Of course its possible and of course it happens but plenty of mono hulls go to the bottom as well while the is at least a good change that an upside down cat will stay afloat.

( I have seen a couple of reports of cat hitting something and then sinking but such a fate could just as easily strike a mono .... unless of course she's a Malo which as we all know are indestructible. )

Andrew B
 
#10 ·
Errk ... took so long to type that last post the world has passed me by. Paulo and others ... I'll reply a little later on but I'm off line for awhile now.

Quick ps - Paulo ... only reason I dissed Tris is that they have no accomodation advantage over a mono.
 
#11 ·
Geoff .... your post nails one of our chief concerns with cats, its hard for a lifetime mono sailor to acquire any real affection for them.

Paulo ... were we to ever consider going multi the accomodation would be one of the major selling points. I know you spend more time on your boat than we do but even so we usually get in a couple of short cruises , total around six weeks, plus we spend around three out of every four weekends on board even through winter and in summer tending towards three day weekends as well. Sydney is a moderate climate, we have a nice long hottish summer that in reality covers the end of spring and the beginning of autumn so easily five months of good weather with a relatively mild winter. Nonetheless we still spend the vast majority of our time at anchor. A forty foot cat murders our 42' mono as far as living area is concerned.

Regarding performance I'd have thought that once you get into the 40' range a comparable loa cat would outperform a mono in pretty much all conditions though e.g a Lagoon may not fall into that category. Certainly the cat we paced ourselves against last month was our equal hard on the wind and simply walked away when reaching.

I know it may as if I am trying to sell something but really for the first time I took a real interest in the cats around us this year and yes they did make a positive impression on me. Not they will are likely to change our ride. Looking at things like e.g Leopards indicates that such a move would easily double what we paid for the Malo. Bit rich for me I think.

Nonetheless the discussion interests me.
 
#13 · (Edited)
...

Regarding performance I'd have thought that once you get into the 40' range a comparable loa cat would outperform a mono in pretty much all conditions though e.g a Lagoon may not fall into that category. Certainly the cat we paced ourselves against last month was our equal hard on the wind and simply walked away when reaching.

I know it may as if I am trying to sell something but really for the first time I took a real interest in the cats around us this year and yes they did make a positive impression on me. Not they will are likely to change our ride. Looking at things like e.g Leopards indicates that such a move would easily double what we paid for the Malo. Bit rich for me I think.

Nonetheless the discussion interests me.
As I said, there are cats that are built for the space and cats that are build for performance and one of those built for space will have not a better performance than a performance mono-hull cruiser.

On the articles section of sailnet, that is unavailable (don't know why) there is a very interesting compassion between cats and monohulls made by a delivery skipper, one of the best I have read.

For what you describe to be your sailing season it seems to me that a cat makes a lot of sense and I am referring of those built for space and living aboard. Even those can sail pretty well, specially if compared with a mainstream cruiser. In Sardinia, some years back I meet an Italian that had sailed a 42ft Lagoon to Brazil, Caribbean and back and he was very satisfied with the boat.

My sailing season is a bit different. I like to have the boat sailing so In average I sail 6/8 hours a day, sometimes more and I like to push the boat (for pleasure) so a small cat (40ft) would be a bad idea for me, specially in the med where strong gusts from mountains are quite frequent not to mention that they provide indifferent sailing. A small cat requires a prudent sailor and one that sails always with a big safety margin.

These guys says about the same as I am saying regarding space and performance and they are heavy weights, I mean to Na Nigel Irens, top sailor Brian Thompson and top tester from YW sail magazine:



The fact they have not much thing to say about sailing is give you a hint that these boats are not designed to give pleasure as sailing boats. They work alright on autopilot and sail you to where you want to go but they are really about space and quality life at anchor. It seems they fit perfectly your bill;)

In fact what you do it is what most cruisers do and that's why they are so popular. It happens that most don't have the honesty to say that is that what they like most on a sailboat, it seems that you are one of the few that have no problem in saying that you stay 90% of time on anchor. I am quite sure you are not the only one, in fact I am pretty sure you are among the majority, unless we consider the ones that like most to be at marinas:D.

Regards

Paulo
 
#12 ·
Now that I've let the thread percolate a little and the mono folks say their piece I'll chime in.
So far, I'm the only poster to have actually owned a cat, just saying.

Cat's have nine lives, and not all cats are the same. Some are built as cruisers, some racers, some do the same oxymoronic thing mono's do and try to be a racer/cruiser or cruiser/racer.
All boats are compromises.
I paid a list price of 154k for my Gemini, new off factory floor in 2007. At the time a Bene/Catalina/Hunter in the 38 foot range was 180 ish.
Gem's are built to a price point, they have gotten better since Hunter took over, but are now in the 200-225k price range.

As to pointing ability - sure the stub keel types (Lagoons, Leopards etc.) don't point well. They aren't made to folks, no more than shoal keel mono's are.
Boards down, my Gemini pointed to 35 degrees apparent wind, fall off 5 degrees and speed went up 1/3.
I broke 14kts in 20kts of wind on a close reach - with a queen sized bed, air conditioner, three cabins and a dinghy hanging on the davits. That wasn't surfing, that was for a mile of thrill ride until common sense prevailed and I shortened sail.
Let's just close the performance issue until someone can say a comparatively sized and outfitted mono can do that, even once.

Comparing a Lagoon's pointing ability to a Malo is just wrong. Compare it (as a cruising boat) to a Island Packet.
I've sailed side by side with a IP 34, no boards for me - and it was a point to point match. I put the boards down, I outpointed it and sailed away.
I've also sailed side by side with CraigToo on his Sabre 34 (centerboard). I can't point with him, but I can catch him on a reach (not with his new assym).
When he is in cruising mode (full of people, stuff and towing a dinghy) he's right down there in the low knots with me.

Apples to apples

Apples and oranges folks.

Okay, now - as some of you know I no longer have that Gemini, I've gone back to the Dark side on a Irwin 38 CC.
Don't try to read between the lines. As the cruising time in my life approaches it makes sense to have a paid off boat rather than making payments for another decade.

The one thing none of you has mentioned so far - heeling. Cat's do heel ya know, especially the smaller ones.

Capsize, let me bring it up - sure, catamarans can and do, and when they do they don't come back up.
But they float and provide a survival platform.
Mono's roll, but come back up, sometimes they do, sometimes they just sink - with rig broken and flailing around. It's not like you are going to do anything but fire off a EPRIB and wait for rescue (same as the folks on the catamaran).

Compromises folks, it's all about compromises.
 
#14 ·
chucklesR,
As a prior owner of a Gemini, would you buy another one? How was the quality? We plan on buying our first large cruiser, after having smaller monohulls, and spend a couple of years in the caribbean. We have been looking at Fountaine Pajot and Lagoon in the 35 to 38 foot range. I spent a week on a Fountaine 42 last October, and was impressed on the stability and performance. It did struggle on being close hauled (45 degrees). My budget is between $150,000 and $200,000, depending on whether it is ready to cruise. Originally thought that I would consider the Gemini, but thought that they seems to be a little light weight for what I was wanting to do. Since we are 6 months away from having to make any decision, I am open to opinions.
 
#21 ·
In short, no, I would not. I'd save a little for a heavier CRUISING catamaran. As I said above when they try to stick a racer/cruiser moniker on a boat you wind up with a compromised boat.

Gemini's are faster because they have a 8.76 :1 ratio length to beam on the hulls. Unfortunately the max beam is 4 feet. Pounds per inch immersion is only 450 pounds per hull.
That is the major indicator of how much weight affects performance.

Take the same money (225k for a loaded, new Gemini) and apply it to a used FP, Maxium 38 etc and you'll be happier.
 
#15 ·
We cruised our 40' mono (Catalina 400) for a year and then lived on it for a year. We have since sold the boat and moved onto a horse farm ;-)

If I could do it again, and the cruising was similar (island hopping Bahamas or the carribean) and did not involve crossing any oceans or rounding any horns, I would definetely choose a Catamaran (assuming money is no object).

The catamaran is a much more comfortable cruising plaform once you are at anchor, even compared to a mono like our C400 (with it's large cockpit and interior volume).

One huge advantage of a catamaran is the closeness of the salon to the cockpit, it allows the galley slave to be part of social activities in the cockpit while preparing food and drinks. When the weather is inclement it is nice to be able to sit in the salon and actually see what's is going on outside.

Some of the larger cats also allow you to sail/motor from the nav station with joystick controls. Nice in bad/rainy weather.

Ease of getting in and out of dinghy is a big plus. Nice sturdy davits another. Ability to add enormous amount of solar panels to cockpit hard bimini.

Private owners states room is nice. lagoon 400 and 420 has very nice starboard hull statesrooms.

Drawbacks: galley storage and counter space can be on the small side (see Lagoon 380)
Also - the interior seems to be less woody and more plastic than most monos.

As far as performance goes, there seems to be a huge difference between a cruising cat like a Lagoon 380 and a performance cruising cat like the Aussie built Fusion 40. we sailed from the Abacos to Ft Pierce FL ( a 24 hr run) on a broad reach with wind strength varying from 10 to 20+ over 24 hrs. the Lagoon 380 started from same place as us and we were probably 500 ft behind the at FT Pierce inlet. The Fusion 40 started 1-2 hrs behind us, overtook us as we entered the gulf stream and then we never saw him again. Admittedly the Fusion guy was a very accomplished sailor and flew a cruising chute (during the night...brave...)

Andrew, take a look at the Aussie built fusion, they come in kit form and you can a professional yard finish them to your spec.

Fusion Sail Catamarans
 
#27 · (Edited)
Is this a cruising cat?
To some it is to others not...
Nice boat and overall yes, she is a cruising cat but for the purpose of this thread not applicable for much the same reason as my dismissal of Paulo's nominated trimaran.

I'm not knocking you, Paulo or those boats but i'm thinking in terms of boats that fit the norm of a cruising cat.

cheers

Andrew B
 
#26 ·
I think in the main we have settled that accomodation wise Cats are their own pyjamas. If I have one major criticism of Cat interiors it is that the designers seem obsessed with curved settees .... in my eye an utter abomination . It must be admitted however that the more modern cruising monos are leaps and bounds ahead of their older cousins in providing comfort for their crews ... at least when anchored.

Now please, humour me somewhat as I know damn well that my knowledge of what may make a good cruising cat is somewhat limited.

LOA ... I'd thought that circa 40' had bought us into the range of big enough to avoid the downsides of a small cat. If it is so that nothing under 50' will suffice then I lose interest very rapidly indeed. I wouldn't go to a 50' mono so a 50' cat is most assuredly out of the question. Paulo's suggestion therefore that 40' is simply not big enough does concern me.

Performance ..... it would appear that something along the lines of a Lagoon 420 is pretty much on par with a medium performance mono, go to a dagger board design and things are looking better. That said and looking only at working sails (no assy for the moment) our Malo is never going to see plus ten knots, in "crikey maybe we need to tuck in a reef soon" winds we've seen 8.5knts and maybe with an assy we could see that on a reach in lighter winds. However, despite the fact that she is a big old heavy cruiser, in order to maintain that kind of speed you need to sail the old girl. Plonk her on auto and leave her pretty much to her own devices then she'll settle into a 6.5knt (or thereabouts) groove. That is fifty miles a day difference, or on a 100nm passage a difference of four hours. So, at 8.5 knots I can leave at dawn and be in port by nightfall. At 6.5 I need to be away in the middle of the night. So even a couple of knots is important.

Once upon a time if asked about such a difference I'd have answered, so whats the hurry ? The hurry quite frankly is not wanting to set sail in the dark and not wanting to arrive in a strange port after dark. If, and I say if, a mid performing cruising cat could see those 8.5 knts as a regular groove then the performance while seemingly only marginally better than a mono is in fact quite significant. I don't know about the rest of you but leaving port in the dark, settling the boat in for a passage in the dark, settling yourself in for a passage in the dark is not something I do for fun. Oh sure, on a moonlit night with bugger all wind leaving a quiet port can be thoroughly pleasant, doing the same thing into even a 15 knot headwind over a barred entrance where you will have to motor out and then set sail is very different critter indeed.

Sailing enjoyment ... despite saying that we spend 90% of our time at anchor most of our sailing (other than a harbour day sail) is coastal and I do enjoy my sailing. Having never sailed a large multi I'll be very interested to see how I feel about it. Geoff and a couple of others downplay the sailing enjoyment, that is of some concern.

Methinks a charter may be in my future.

Thanks to Chuckles and Tropi for adding a multi hull perspective to the thread.

Keep it coming.
 
#28 ·
...
LOA ... I'd thought that circa 40' had bought us into the range of big enough to avoid the downsides of a small cat. If it is so that nothing under 50' will suffice then I lose interest very rapidly indeed. I wouldn't go to a 50' mono so a 50' cat is most assuredly out of the question. Paulo's suggestion therefore that 40' is simply not big enough does concern me.

....
Sailing enjoyment ... despite saying that we spend 90% of our time at anchor most of our sailing (other than a harbour day sail) is coastal and I do enjoy my sailing. Having never sailed a large multi I'll be very interested to see how I feel about it. Geoff and a couple of others downplay the sailing enjoyment, that is of some concern.

...
Maybe I was not clear. When I said that a 40ft cat is not big enough I was talking about a voyage cat, a cat designed with passage making in mind. A boat like yours is in my opinion more seaworthy than a 40ft cat. A 40ft cat is perfectly capable as a coastal cruiser and even as an offshore boat, only in a less extent than a 40ft typical cruiser boat.

Putting it another way: A good 30ft monohull can pass EC certification as a Class A boat, I don't believe a 30ft cat would be able to do that.

But not all are the same. It is not only the boards but also the windage and a high CG. I guess that if you try a lagoon style cat you are going to be bored unless you don't enjoy sailing. It will not make a substantial difference in speed regarding your boat.

Australia has some great cruising cats. See if you can try one of these:





Schionning Designs from Julie Geldard on Vimeo.

Schionning Wilderness 40 cruising catamaran | Multihull Yacht Sales Australia

Regards

Paulo
 
#30 ·
Tropic .... it doesn't have to degenerate into a slug fest , nor should it. I guess you would most disagree with Paulo's assertion re offshore capability ? I think its fair for you to throw in your reasons.

I'm seriously trying to come to grips with the subject matter. Both sides of any subject need to be aired.

Andrew B

ps - Paulo ... I quite liked that Wilderness though she's probably a bit old. Other Schionning designs look interesting as does the Catana range. (when I have the time I'll start posting some pics.)

The age and layout of that Wilderness raises a couple of questions ... I'd have no hesitation in buying a ten or even twenty year old monohull if of Malo quality. How do the better class of cats hold up as the years pass by ? Also galley ? Up is the flavour of the century but why ? Down galley seems to make more sense from a "using the available space and opening up the salon" point of view.
 
#31 · (Edited)
OH, I'd like to understand why Paulo made that statement concerning blue water capability of catamarans?

I think people in your part of the world still remember the Queens Birthday Storm and how well catamarans held up in a typhoon compared to the monohulls. One would say that not one monohull was seaworthy in that storm when compared to the catamarans, wouldn't one?

Fast Forward to the present and Catalac 12Ms which are now close to 30 years old are still making Atlantic crossings (S/V Angel Louise - Florida to England via Bermuda and the Azores) or even the lightly built Gemini Catamarans who travel from California to Fiji (S/V "Tere Hau Nui"), none of these boats was larger than 40'. We haven't even scratched the surface yet. All of which lead me to believe that Paulo might have to check the dates on his books as his library might be full of pre 1980 books on sailing.

Things have changed.
 
#35 · (Edited)
OH, I'd like to understand why Paulo made that statement concerning blue water capability of catamarans?
...
Fast Forward to the present and Catalac 12Ms which are now close to 30 years old are still making Atlantic crossings (S/V Angel Louise - Florida to England via Bermuda and the Azores) or even the lightly built Gemini Catamarans who travel from California to Fiji (S/V "Tere Hau Nui"), none of these boats was larger than 40'. We haven't even scratched the surface yet. All of which lead me to believe that Paulo might have to check the dates on his books as his library might be full of pre 1980 books on sailing.

Things have changed.
I have not said that catamarans were not blue water boats. I said that size by size mono-hulls were more seaworthy and I am talking generically not referring any specific model.

Many monohulls smaller than 35 ft have circumnavigated and even one with less than 24ft had done that without stopping. That does not lead me to say that a 34ft mono-hull are indicated as a voyage boat or passage making (in what regards seaworthiness) even if obviously many had done that.

CE rating is over-rated and mono biased.
The theoretical work where that legislation is based was done by a huge team that included many of best European architects and even at least a well known American one. I have heard the EC ratings being accused of being too embracing in what regards category A boats (no limits) never heard anybody complaining that it was too severe regards the boats that did not reach the requirements for being considered class A.

There are good technical reasons regarding safety and stability that allows some 30ft mono-hulls to be class A boats and prevents 30ft catamarans to do the same.

Note that there is nothing that says that a 30ft monohull or multihull cannot be Class A boats. For being a class A the boat has to pass some stability and safety requirements. Simply what happens is that some monohulls can meet those conditions and to my knowledge, no 30ft catamaran has done that.

We can argue that the theoretical support for those rules is wrong, even if I never heard nobody complaining that it is too harsh regarding monohulls or multihulls, but what leaves no doubt is that the ones that made that rules were among the best specialists in Naval Architecture and knew and know much more than you or I over the subject.

Best regards

Paulo
 
#33 ·
Don't think I've ever posted on this forum but here goes.
There are plenty of smaller catamarans that are serious offshore cruisers as there are monos. Tropicats Catalac 27 comes to mind. The Catalac isn't designed to be a fast cat but at 27' very spacious, seaworthy and comfortable.
Performance wise there are fast cats and fast monos. There are also slow monos and slow cats. They both have advantages. The mono will probably point higher but the cat will run downwind on a rail with no rolling, great for trade wind passages.
We have owned 8 catamarans over the last 21 years. Guess I have a boat buying problem! Before that we owned 2 monos. We are now boatless. I would love to find another cat but as we now own a house we don't know if we can afford the type cat we like which is performance based. Maybe our next boat will be a mono......maybe not.
 
#34 ·
The multi vs mono thing tends to be polarizing (nearly as bad as the sportbike vs harley rivalry) but my bias has been clearly stated so you can take that into consideration. Also, while I do have an opinion, I am not qualified to discuss the seaworthiness or otherwise of cats so I won't be going there.

Speed: As far as your first post, you were comparing your Malo to a cruising cat. You didn’t identify the cat but even so, I wonder if that is a fair comparison. I love Malos but yours is an older, offshore oriented design, while most cruising cats are more modern, lighter built coastal cruisers. Maybe a more representative comparison might something like a Jeanneau 42i which has a much longer LWL and two thirds of the displacement; admittedly your Malo caries a little more sail. Would it have been faster? I think so but I’m not sure. I am sure it’s difficult to compare apples with apples when looking at monos and multis. And I’m not even sure that the Jeanneau is a fair comparison – should we maybe be comparing based on price or as cats tout their living accommodation, maybe volume or living space? In that case, assuming we are looking a similar age and build quality, we would be looking at a much longer and probably faster mono than either a 42i or a Malo.

Room: One reason I chose the Jenneau for the previous comparison is because I chartered one recently and I have also sailed a Mooring 4200 which is their version of a Leopard 42. If you need four double cabins and four heads, there’s no comparison (vs 3 cabins/2 heads) but the main cabin (saloon) and galley weren’t much different; I would argue that the Jenneau had the better galley. The cat had a much bigger cockpit but one day when friends came down for a day sail, we had eight on the Jeanneau and it didn’t feel cramped. And we rattled about in the thing when there were just two of us. Obviously, this only comparing one example of each type. So, how much space do you need?

But really and truly, all that is irrelevant! Life is too short to sail a boat that doesn’t push your buttons. I suggest you sail a cat and a modern mono that you like the look of. Then buy the one that talks to you - and sell the Malo to me. ;)
 
#37 ·
..

Speed:.. And I'm not even sure that the Jeanneau is a fair comparison - should we maybe be comparing based on price or as cats tout their living accommodation, maybe volume or living space? In that case, assuming we are looking a similar age and build quality, we would be looking at a much longer and probably faster mono than either a 42i or a Malo.

Room: One reason I chose the Jenneau for the previous comparison is because I chartered one recently and I have also sailed a Mooring 4200 which is their version of a Leopard 42. ..The cat had a much bigger cockpit but one day when friends came down for a day sail, we had eight on the Jeanneau and it didn't feel cramped. And we rattled about in the thing when there were just two of us. Obviously, this only comparing one example of each type. So, how much space do you need?

But really and truly, all that is irrelevant! Life is too short to sail a boat that doesn't push your buttons. I suggest you sail a cat and a modern mono that you like the look of. Then buy the one that talks to you - and sell the Malo to me. ;)
:D

Geoff, that is an interesting post but you talk about speed and then miss the subject all together:)

You make a good point about price and I think that regarding the buyer that has a budget for a boat, price is the main limitation so in fact price would be a better pattern in what regards a measure to compare.

A new Lagoon 421 costs around 300 000 euros, vat excluded, that is more than a Jeanneau 57. If we compare both boats I don't think that the Cat neither in space or speed would take advantage.

But even so, comparing a much more expensive boat with a less expensive one, as you have done, it would be interesting to hear your comments regarding speed and sail pleasure between the two boats that you refer. You don't say anything about that;).

Regards

Paulo
 
#40 ·
Seems to me that modern day thinking doesn't look into the facts of the past. 25 years ago a 35' mono or cat was considered large and seaworthy, nowadays they're considered to small to be seaworthy? Are the newer designs so bad you have to make up for their compromised design with extra length? Another aspect of seaworthiness is the ability to be able to handle the boat in extreme conditions and to me the larger the boat is the harder to handle. Most boats no matter what size are usually able to take inclement weather better than their skippers.
 
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