80k 2big 2small 2feline - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum
 Not a Member? 


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 05-07-2004
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 29
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
TADIAS is on a distinguished road
80k 2big 2small 2feline

We''re about 6mos from starting our search for a boat in earnest and I, like many it appears, am a awash in the dream of cruising with very little knowledge of the manufacturers of crafts that will suit our needs best.

Our needs are having a craft that will be capable of crossing the oceans. Safety of the craft is our biggest priority. Much of the sailing will be single handed. Physical strength tasks on board should be as easy as possible as my wife has trouble starting the lawn mower (she’s promised to start buffing up). My wife insists that the galley come fully equipped personally I think we should skip the refrigeration as we’re vegetarians and I don’t like ice. We won’t be living on board. Our large passages would come every couple of years so there will be plenty of time for maintenance getting parts etc. (I can fix just about anything if that matters). We have 2 young children and 2 cats. We do not require that we have separate cabins but do require a place for the cat box, toy and tool stowage (a quarter berth perhaps). I would like to have a dedicated navigation station. I really like the look of a cutter but wonder if having the extra sail is worth the trouble and/or cost. We don’t intend on gunk holing but don’t want to be stuck in the deep water anchorages either. We wouldn’t be leaving for a few years so this should double as a decent costal cruiser in the meantime.

Our budget is not limited to 80k but that’s where I’d like to keep it and it would include fitting out (tender, life raft, EPIRB, PFDs, harnesses, etc.). As long as the needs above are met size doesn’t matter. Any suggestions…questions?
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #2  
Old 05-08-2004
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: New England USA
Posts: 261
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 12
Silmaril is on a distinguished road
80k 2big 2small 2feline

Well, you are going to get a bunch of advise here. Looks like you are putting together a very enviable task, preparing for a life on the water with your family!

In general, being the opinionated person that I am, here are some thoughts to concider.

While there are many boats out there that satisfy your light cruising requirements, it''s the trans-oceanic part that will overide most other concerns. Construction and design will play a big part in this. In general, I have always felt that you need at least 40'' of boat to feel comfortable in the open ocean. Sure there are those who have done it on less (myself included) but the intimidation factor is somewhat lessened with a bigger boat. Plus, you will need something of sufficient size to handle all the stores and gear to make the trip enjoyable.

I prefer a deep keel for ocean passage, yes it limits your gunkholing, but as you stated, that is not a concern. I would tend to stay away from the cutter rig, the extra weight and complexity is just not worth it. There are boats that have removable jack stays on a lever, but the ones that come to mind are out of your price range.

As far as construction, you want a robust vessel. Solid glass hull, thick with a strong bow. Lots of internal bracing, stringers and bulkheads fully tabbed into the hull. Chainplates that are tied into either bulkheads or a fastening system to the mast step/keel. I prefer a keel stepped mast, but there is nothing wrong with a deck stepped mast that is properly engineed for ocean passage.

The hull deck joint should be fastened with s/s bolts on 2" centers, with a hull flange in the 3" to 4" range. The keel should be lead, bolted to a robust keel shoe, and not encapsolated in glass.

Steer clear of the traditional "lines" with lots of overhang. It makes for a wet ride, deep slow motions, and reduces interior storage.

As you evalute boats, take a look from time to time at it''s PHRF rating. I know you will not be racing, but the rating gives you a good sense for a boats speed realitive to others. A boat that has a lower rating will be faster than a similar sized oat with a higher rating. Each point is worth about 1 second per mile in speed differential. As an example, a Bristol 40 rates 162, a Hinckley B-40 rates about 160, and a Tartan 41 rates 102, which is a bout a minute per mile faster. The Bristol and the Hinckley are very "Yachty" boats and the Tartan would be concidered more of a "Racer" (I personally would not want to put to sea in either the Bristol, not robust enough, or the Hinckley a little too robust) In an ocean passage, the Tartan would be DAYS or even WEEKS ahead of the other two, yet it is in the same size range. The Tartan would also be less work on the crew (although the large genoa could be a bit much to handle)

I choose the boats to compare because the Bristol and the Tartan are in a very similar price point to each other.

I would want a refridgerator, even if you are vegans, you can keep food so much longer with one. A well thought out electrical system, multiple battery banks are in order as well. I would invest in some of the excellent books on the subject of sailboat sytems, Nigel Calder''s come to mind. Read them and use the knowledge gained during your search.

Stay clear of in-mast or in-boom furling gear. Nothing can beat the ease, speed, and simplicity of a slab or "jiffy" reefing system. While roller furling the jib/genoa make life easier for day tripps and port hopping, you may want to think about hanked on head sails. Less maintenance, never jamb, and the sail stays attached when it is lowered, a nice feature in a blow, catching "greenies" over the bow. And beacuse you will be passage making, the extra few minutes it takes to raise sails will not be an issue, and the ability to safely lower and change headsails in a storm will be greatly appreciated.

Self steering gear is also something to concider. I would avoid one that has been on the boat for many years and miles. I would rather want to install a new system of one of the more modern designs. Make sure your boat choice can easilty handle one if you decide to go that route.

You will whant to spend a little time finding a reputable marine surveyor, someone you can trust and work with. Listen to him/her when they make their recommendations.

Another reason I mentioned the Tartan 41 is that IMHO it suits you to a "T". The price is about where you want it to be. They are built like tanks and designed by S&S. Lots of room in a very well thought out interior. Although their dated CCA/IOR influenced design means you have a boat with a large headsail and small mainsail, they were far from the more radical aproaches to those design formulae. They are well built, and there are some very nice examples of them out there.

Hope you find your boat and enjoy the life you are choosing.

Good luck and fair winds.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #3  
Old 05-08-2004
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 33
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
onojmai is on a distinguished road
80k 2big 2small 2feline

so you''re saying avoid a roller jib on bluewater cruising? sounds like interesting advice, but sensible.
also, why avoid an over-built hinckley? i know they''re a bit much when it comes to economics, but they are wonderfully built boats. why avoid them?
are bristols mor of a showman''s boat than a capable offshore boat? interested in what you have to say. thanks.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #4  
Old 05-08-2004
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 29
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
TADIAS is on a distinguished road
80k 2big 2small 2feline

I''m wondering about the head sail comment too. Doesn''t a roller furling headsail make the boat much easier to sigle hand?
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #5  
Old 05-09-2004
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 224
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 12
flicker is on a distinguished road
80k 2big 2small 2feline

Silmaril,

Wow. Off hand, I can''t think of anyone else who currently advises against RF headsails for cruisers. Granted hank-on jibs are good for taking advantage of varying wind conditions when racing and they are very simple in design and, as a result, have fewer things to break, but even the old timers have come around to advocating them for cruising.

The concern I''ve read about is the fatigue of having to go forward frequently under adverse conditions and change sails when the wind and weather is constantly changing.

Do you use hank-on jibs on your boat when making long passages? If I thought that RFs were of no overall advantage, I would gladly simplify and do without them.

Chas
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #6  
Old 05-09-2004
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: New England USA
Posts: 261
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 12
Silmaril is on a distinguished road
80k 2big 2small 2feline

First, a thought on the Hinckley''s. The B-40 is one of the most visually apealing yachts on the water. I was using it as an example of boat speed. A nice B-40 is two to three times the target price range. The more modern Hinckley''s such as the SW-42 are three to four times the target price. The B-40''s suffer from low freeboard and lots of overhang. This makes a wet boat that has a slow steep pitch, with a tendancy to go though waves, not over them. They are also quite heavy, and require a good deal of sail up to get them to move. No faults in the construction, they are wonderfully built yachts. I also am not a fan of centerboard designs. Yes, they get you into shalower achorages, but I don''t like the extra mechanical complexity. They are a compromise, at best, not as good as a properly designed shoal draft and not as good as a good deep keel. It''s not much, but when Murphy is on board, your best defense is K.I.S.S.

Another wonderfully over constructed yacht series is any Nautor Swan. They just dont break. Take a read of "Force 10 at Fastnet" The Swan 47, "Toscana" that the author sailed on faired well. I helped commision her at Minnefords (sp) in Long Island and sailed quite a few thousand miles on her and can attest to the almost anal detail the Finn''s had in her construction. It''s a shame that most Swan''s have teak decks, I remember one summer after Eric asked us to oil the decks, I think we would have needed golf shoes to get any grip on the decks for at least a month. The maintenance of the teak is just not worth it, no matter how nice it looks. But again, the Swan''s are many times the target price.

As far as the hanks vs. roller furling is concerned, you have to take a moment and think it through. Yes, roller furling is a wonderful tool for short handed sailing in predictable conditions. But that''s the rub. The problem is that you are pretty much stuck with whatever sail you have bent on. If you have lets say a 135% genoa, you may be under canvased in lighter winds. But as the wind and seas build, you can reduce that to maybe 110% and still maintain some sort of shape. IMHO you just cant get a good shape on a furled genny, and it has a whole new loading scenario, and more quickly deteriorates sail shape, and then you have a sail that is underperforming in all conditions.

Now lets look at the storm conditions. You have been sailing and it looks like the wind will build to the point where you would have to reef the genny to an unusable size. You are making more leeway than headway and the boat is sluggish. Better put up a smaller jib. But wait, you will have to unfurl your genny completely, flogging the daylights out of it, and having it come off the the headstay completely, and you will be struggling with this beast in builing seas and increasing winds. You could use one of those storm sails that slips over the rolled genny. They sound neat, but once again, you have a lose sail you have to hoist in a blow on a pitching deck, not to mention the friction of the sleeve as it is pulled up. The other option is to roll the sail up and go by main alone. This is not only slow, but ruins you yachts balance and will give you weather helm you would just not believe!

This is not even taking mechanical failure (Murphy!!!) into the mix. In your haste to get under way, you didn''t mind your drum tension. As the wind builds, you have to put a lot of force on the line, and...it jambs! Now you have too much sail in a building breeze. What are you going to do now?

The lure of roller furling is speed and simplicity, as long as you can cover all wind ranges with just one sail, which of course could never happen.

For long distance cruising and trans-oceanic sailing, hanks have a lot to offer. Now, lets look at the scenario of the building wind and seas. As the wind builds, you can lower your headsail AND IT STAYS ATTACHED TO THE HEADSTAY!!!!! This is no small thing especially when short handed. Now you can stuff it in a bag and stow it below. Hank on the new sail, and hoist it. You can do this yourself, as you don''t need anyone watching the feeders. You now have the right size sail up! Yeah it takes more time, but think of the safety factor. Depending on the boat and sail plan, you can cover most wind ranges with three headsails. Since you are going to be out for weeks at a time, and are not in a heated contest with other yachts, who cares about the extra few minutes it takes to bend on a new sail. That and the fact you will have the proper sailshape for all conditions, you will be faster and more comfortable.

Sailing is both an art and sport. To do it well, you probably have to be a bit participatory and knowledgable of your intended goals. Sure, for coastal cruising and always being within hailing range of Sea-Tow, you can set yourself up with an automated boat that you will never have to leave the cockpit to sail. Pull on some lines and hit some buttons and away you go! But the added complexity these things add, and our pal Murphy will be lurking at the most uncomfortable of moments.

In our litiguous society, I can''t wait for the first lawsuit to come about from some poor soul who suffers catastrophe in his/her sparkling new CE-A rated dock-a-minium out at sea. Claiming that the manufacturers of all the boat''s systems didn''t protect them from their own short sightedness.

For the record, I have a roller furler, used for day trips and messing around. I strip the drum and use the twin foil when racing. If I ever decide to take Silmaril to sea, I will refit her with hanks.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #7  
Old 05-09-2004
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 224
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 12
flicker is on a distinguished road
80k 2big 2small 2feline

Silmaril,

I must say that I had always liked the simplicity of hanks; you''ve job made it easier to choose this much simpler, more maintainable, and less costly system.

Thanks for the hanks,
Chas
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #8  
Old 05-10-2004
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 216
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 13
maestro is on a distinguished road
80k 2big 2small 2feline

I believe that I just saw "Toscana" the Swan 47 the other day transiting up the Hudson river near Poughkeepsie NY. It was definatley a Swan and I am 95% sure that the name was "Toscana" Could it be the same boat?? I know this because I mentioned this to my friend because I read "force 10 at Fastnet" over the winter
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #9  
Old 05-10-2004
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: New England USA
Posts: 261
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 12
Silmaril is on a distinguished road
80k 2big 2small 2feline

Eric had a number of "Toscana''s". The first of mthe Swan Toscana''s was a dark green ''75 44'' with light green decks. The second Swan was the ''47 featured in "Force 10", she was white with teak decks. The last Toscana was a boat her fell in love with while racing at Cowes, the British Admiral''s cupper "Blizard", a Frers 52 which he later had converted to a gentlemans racer, with a more yacht-like interior than the original pipe berths and flush deck grand prix layout.

They were all in the western portion of LIS so you may have seen one of them. If it was a white Swan 47'' with teak decks... you may have spotted the "Force 10" boat.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #10  
Old 05-10-2004
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 216
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 13
maestro is on a distinguished road
80k 2big 2small 2feline

It was at the Poughkeepsie Yachtr Club late in the day...It was definately a white Swan with teak decks.....
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:09 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.