troubling news.. - Page 2 - SailNet Community
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post #11 of 31 Old 02-24-2013
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Re: troubling news..

Pity the former owners of our new boat. We just paid $2500 for a highly-regarded 30 footer with a working engine and decent (tho not great) sails.

Actually, they donated it via Boat Angel, so they will be able to claim up to 50% of the NADA value against their taxes, or roughly $9k. Which may be more than they could have gotten selling it outright -- older 30'ers with tired interiors are fetching about $7k, like that O'day. And here's the kicker: they were looking at $2k for winter storage. $4400 a year slip fees. Genoa could use updating. And so on. You'd burn thru the book value of the boat itself in ancillary costs every three years. I reckon you have to balance the annual fun you get out of a boat against the annual costs of ownership, and if the two don't nearly match, sell the damned thing. Forget market value, write off the equity, and never fool yourself you will recoup a dime you have spent fixing or improving it.

So in a way, the buying and selling prices of older boats are neither here nor there. They are a neutral factor, or perhaps you even take a beating. But that's a beating you only take once. Perhaps as a buyer you score a glorious bargain (like we did). Enjoy, cuz that's the last bit of fiscal positivity you are likely to see from the boat. We spent $2500 on the boat. $300 getting it to a storage yard; $2000 having it hauled; $2500 having it shipped; $400 lifting it off the trailer. We expect to put $8k into the refit, then another $2500 hauling it to the ocean, probably $1000 more in commissioning. In the end, we will have more than the NADA value sunk into a boat with a 40yr old Volvo engine. *urk* We might get $10-12k on the open market.

On the plus side, that's still better performance than a lot of 401ks over the past 5 yrs.

Buccaneer18, Grainnia
SJ21, Diarmuid
Albin Ballad 30, Fionn
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post #12 of 31 Old 02-24-2013
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Re: troubling news..

Bob,
Congrats on the Albin Ballad, pretty boat (I had to Google it).

If you're going to weigh the financial sense of a boat you have to look at more than just buying and selling.

People around here pay BIG money to live on the water at the Jersey Shore. For what most people pay for a one week vacation on Long Beach Island we get a three season waterfront property (our slip) and we get to play out on the water. Try that in a condo! (No Sandy jokes please it's too soon)

So compared to having a mortgage on a million dollar property our boat makes pretty good financial sense.

You see, it's all in how you look at it

Jim
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The sail, the play of its pulse so like our own lives: so thin and yet so full of life, so noiseless when it labors hardest, so noisy and impatient when least effective." - Henry David Thoreau
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post #13 of 31 Old 02-24-2013 Thread Starter
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Re: troubling news..

Thank you all for the encouraging help. I'm in a YC so that's a big cost savings over his winter storage at a marina. I've done the barrier coat, pss seal, cutless bearing, new fuel system, new table tops, new counter top and facet for the sink, new Norcold unit for the "box" Boat also has a force 10 2 burner stove with oven, I'm not quite ready to sell and if it do it will be with a another boat in mind. side by side I'd say the look about the same. at first glance.

Denise, Bristol PA, Oday 30. On Tidal Delaware River, Anchor Yacht Club.
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My boat is sold!
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post #14 of 31 Old 02-24-2013
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Re: troubling news..

Hey Denise,

Did the guy listing the boat on CraigsList tell you that the decks need to be re-cored?

Well, I don't know that it does either... but it illustrates my point that you don't know everything about why that boat is priced so far below the value that you see in yours. This boat could be a great deal, priced fairly, or even a rip-off... Unless you understand the seller's motivation, his price should have NO influence on the value in your boat.

I paid about NADA retail for mine, and have put that much again into it. So, by now I've paid 200% of NADA, at that time that I bought it... However, I just checked NADA, and see that the estimated value of my boat has decreased since I bought my boat...

My only justification is that I did not buy this as a FINANCIAL investment. Also, even if I could, I would not sell it for what I have invested in her.


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Last edited by eherlihy; 02-25-2013 at 11:35 AM.
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post #15 of 31 Old 02-24-2013
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Re: troubling news..

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimMcGee View Post
Bob,
Congrats on the Albin Ballad, pretty boat (I had to Google it).

If you're going to weigh the financial sense of a boat you have to look at more than just buying and selling.

People around here pay BIG money to live on the water at the Jersey Shore. For what most people pay for a one week vacation on Long Beach Island we get a three season waterfront property (our slip) and we get to play out on the water. Try that in a condo! (No Sandy jokes please it's too soon)

So compared to having a mortgage on a million dollar property our boat makes pretty good financial sense.

You see, it's all in how you look at it

Jim
Thanks, Jim. The Ballad is a sweet boat capable of sailing almost anywhere. But like any old boat, it's not what you would call investment grade. I like your comparison to waterfront property. We look at our new boat as a cheap Mexican vacation cottage. We could charter cheaper, perhaps, but we likely could not own waterfront property for less. Plus it goes places! we could have a cottage in the Marquesas, or New Zealand, if the impulse stikes us. When you look at the cost of chartering a boat for a week, or renting a vaction home, or hotel rates -- bundle that with airfare, eating out, etc -- sailboat ownership becomes slightly less stupid. Slightly.

The idea that used boat pricing is rational ... it's not, really. There are so few comps of a given model with similar equipment sold in a given market in a given year. Some people are desperate for cash, others can price it high (perhaps hoping it won't really sell.) Owner may have health issues, or relationship issues, or maybe got a good deal when she boaught it and wants to help out someone else, or maybe put 5x the NADA in gadgets and repairs and thinks he's due some of that on resale. *shrug* The motives are as variable as the boats themselves, both for buyers and for sellers. Maybe better to choose a price that allows you to do what you want to do next, when buying or selling.

As an example: We recently sold an old Ford tractor. Came with a second, parts tractor. We thought it would be useful around the house. It wasn't, and like a boat, it cost a bit to repair and three hours fixing it for every hour in the driver's seat. Extensive research helped me set a fair market value ($2500) for this tractor; quite a few enthusiasts came out to see it at that price. Some wanted it for free. Others liked it & thought the price fair but didn't have the money right now. One found another Major for more money but in better shape. Two years pass. Tractor still sitting in the yard. It's not costing us anything, but it's not doing us any good, either.

Then we stumble over the Albin sailboat. Suddenly, we need the damned tractor out of the way NOW. And we need whatever cash we can get for it, NOW, to defray the cost of a new toy. Sold it for $800, with the box blade. Tractor didn't change -- we did. The value of the item depends on lots of factors, not least whether you have the luxury of waiting for the market to operate. Timing is probably at least as important as NADA or condition in the ultimate selling price of a boat. Sounds like Denise isn't driven to sell by external factors; that's helpful.

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post #16 of 31 Old 02-24-2013
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Re: troubling news..

A Yachtworld search won't tell you the real value, because asking isn't getting. A broker would have access to recent sales and could probably give you a better idea of what a boat is worth.
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post #17 of 31 Old 02-24-2013
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Lightbulb Re: troubling news..

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A Yachtworld search won't tell you the real value, because asking isn't getting. A broker would have access to recent sales and could probably give you a better idea of what a boat is worth.
Even the selling price data on the "soldboats" site is only as accurate as the honesty of the broker making the entry.
Better than trying to go only by asking price, tho.

Main determiner, as others point out, is CONDITION. Once a boat gets beyond about 15 or 20 years old, the value can vary by up 400% from the low end fixer-upper to the (rare!) turn key model.

The number of older boats with deferred maintenance costs that total more than the asking price is amazing...........

So take care of your boat and get your "value" out of it in sailing and cruising time. It's the only sure dividend you're likely to ever see.
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post #18 of 31 Old 02-25-2013
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Re: troubling news..

Boats are an investment in life, and this far out weights any depreciation!..Dale

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post #19 of 31 Old 02-25-2013
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Re: troubling news..

The stock of good old cheap boats is falling every year, the economy is slowly comming out of recession, and a wave of old timers will retire to the hobby of sailing, so prices will go up. My J22 rose in value 50% in the few years I owned it. Now my good old cheap 29 footer only gets repaired with used parts, and upgrades with used parts, to hedge my bets. Rear pulpit $50 from a C&C. Complete and new nagahide cushion covers $100. A cylinder head, fuel pump, alternator and wiring for $140. Mylar genoa $340. And the same amount for my girlfriend. Life is grand!
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post #20 of 31 Old 02-25-2013
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Re: troubling news..

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A Yachtworld search won't tell you the real value, because asking isn't getting. A broker would have access to recent sales and could probably give you a better idea of what a boat is worth.
Actually I'd disagree. Boats on YachtWorld are placed by brokers who have access to sold data and a good idea of where the market is. They know a boat priced too far out of line with the market won't get any eyeballs and won't sell, meaning they won't see a commission.

Now there are good and bad brokers and a sellers idea of what their boat is worth will have an affect; but a good broker will try and talk a seller down to a more reasonable number.

95 Catalina 30 Island Time

The sail, the play of its pulse so like our own lives: so thin and yet so full of life, so noiseless when it labors hardest, so noisy and impatient when least effective." - Henry David Thoreau
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