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  #11  
Old 03-12-2013
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Re: Modern design + full keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeuss View Post
Thanks for the comments.

I'm sorry I didn't make myself very clear perhaps, or at least could have been more specific. I actually mean the hull shape as opposed to the interior.

Most of the full keel boats I see on the internet look to me like those very old fisherman boats one sees so now and then.

I'm trying to find out if there is anything that resembles what we see in a modern sailboat of the manufacturers I mentioned above. For me that would mean a smaller cockpit area, a flatter hull, not so many big windows, etc.

Anyways, something that looks more like a bavaria 42 than a tayana 37.

I understand that perhaps I what I'm after is just impossible or unthinkable in boat design, if that is the case then I just want to know that and ideally why if someone can help.

Hope this makes it more clear.
I guess not, I mean clear, at least not for me:

You want a kind of a Bavaria 42 with a full keel or a more traditional design, narrower, with a small cockpit and a fin Keel?

As it was already said in what regards modern boats (recent designs) with a full keel, with the exception of the Island Packet (I don't know if we can consider that modern even if the design is recent) I don't know of any. A British firm presented some years ago a design of a steel boat with a full keel but I believe they never made one and went bankrupt.

More traditional, I would say classic looking boats with a small cockpit, with a fin keel there are several, most of them are just week end cruisers but some are cruising boats, beside being beautiful to look at.

Regards

Paulo
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  #12  
Old 03-12-2013
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Re: Modern design + full keel?

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Originally Posted by Melrna View Post
Island Packets are the only ones I know that are full keel in production. I know Bob Johnson has change the design of the keel a few times over the years. Having said that I am not sure if he is building many boats these days.


And if we are going to be technical about it, an Island Packet is a very long fin keel with a post hung, spade rudder. And I am not sure that I would call that a modern boat. Jus' say'n

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeuss
Thanks for the comments.

I'm sorry I didn't make myself very clear perhaps, or at least could have been more specific. I actually mean the hull shape as opposed to the interior.

Most of the full keel boats I see on the internet look to me like those very old fisherman boats one sees so now and then.

I'm trying to find out if there is anything that resembles what we see in a modern sailboat of the manufacturers I mentioned above. For me that would mean a smaller cockpit area, a flatter hull, not so many big windows, etc.

Anyways, something that looks more like a bavaria 42 than a tayana 37.

I understand that perhaps I what I'm after is just impossible or unthinkable in boat design, if that is the case then I just want to know that and ideally why if someone can help.

But for the most part, I don't know of any boats that have a modern hull form and rig but with a full keel. There are quite a few boats with traditional looking hulls but with modern keels and rigs.

In reality, boat designs operate as a system. Modern hull forms have comparatively little drag and so would not work well with a high drag keel or rig. You would end up with a pretty foul craft with all the liabilities of both schools of thought but that did nothing very well.
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Last edited by Jeff_H; 03-12-2013 at 03:34 PM.
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Re: Modern design + full keel?

I think one of the things that makes a "full keel" work is that they tend to be narrower. Seems to me you are talking about having opposing design goals. Noting is really gained by the full keel, but a lot of performance is lost so why would you want to do that? Especially if you are talking about putting it on a wide flat modern hull shape. You would just be putting more whetted surface area, yet getting less righting moment, and stability. But I am no naval architect. The nature of a full keel is slow and heavy. Once you add any width you are going to slow it down even more.
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Re: Modern design + full keel?

My initial thought was that with a full-keel a modern boat could benefit by becoming more stable (hence safer) in blue waters. At this point I didn't know that the impact of the hull design would have that much of an impact on the overall performance of the boat. This relationship is what I was curious about. I now have a better idea as to why. Thanks guys.

I personally like the design of modern boats, but the thought of going to sea (coastal initially) with boats that have been labeled as "unstable" by many as soon as the wind picks up is not really reassuring.
I know this may be an exaggeration from my side, that there are loads of boats with fin keel which are indeed very stable indeed, perhaps I'm being too conservative here? I'm all for safety at sea no matter what.
As I said above, I'm fond of these new boat designs, but I wouldn't go as far as to trade safety for beauty, unless I can do something to get similar performance (stability, safety, etc).

I don't care so much about speed as long as the boat is not one which would force me a fast escape from mid winds.

Last edited by zeuss; 03-13-2013 at 06:40 AM.
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Old 03-13-2013
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Re: Modern design + full keel?

Zeuss,
Not clear on what you are calling 'stable' - the only advantage regarding stability that comes to my amateur mind is that a full keel is likely to track on course better than a fin keel.
I really don't mean to start an argument with that statement, I have no proof other than what I've read.

Capsize wise regarding stability the rule of thumb is more weight further down is better.
The calculated AVS for my Irwin 38 CC with a design displacement of 20k, and a realistic cruising weight of 24k pounds is in the 130 degree range, either way if I fully turtle I ain't see daylight on the deck again.
That's the same for most boats by the way.

Keep in mind that most folks who are cruising on a full keel boat are not exactly white knuckle thrill seeking adventure junkies - so we are inherently conservative, on a conservative boat. That makes them more stable
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Old 03-13-2013
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Re: Modern design + full keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeuss View Post
My initial thought was that with a full-keel a modern boat could benefit by becoming more stable (hence safer) in blue waters. At this point I didn't know that the impact of the hull design would have that much of an impact on the overall performance of the boat. This relationship is what I was curious about. I now have a better idea as to why. Thanks guys.

I personally like the design of modern boats, but the thought of going to sea (coastal initially) with boats that have been labeled as "unstable" by many as soon as the wind picks up is not really reassuring.
I know this may be an exaggeration from my side, that there are loads of boats with fin keel which are indeed very stable indeed, perhaps I'm being too conservative here? I'm all for safety at sea no matter what.
As I said above, I'm fond of these new boat designs, but I wouldn't go as far as to trade safety for beauty, unless I can do something to get similar performance (stability, safety, etc).

I don't care so much about speed as long as the boat is not one which would force me a fast escape from mid winds.
I respectfully suggest that you are misunderstanding something about fin keels versus full keels. There is absolutely nothing inherently 'unstable' about a fin keel, or inherently more stable about a full keel.

From a design standpoint, a sailboat's need for stability is a relative thing, by which I mean, that stability should be thought of relative to the boat's drag. The more drag a boat has, the more sail area it needs to move, and the more stability that a boat needs to carry that sail area. What ends up happening with high drag vessels (full keel boats that are also short for their weight) is that they tend lack the stability to carry as much sail area as they would ideally have. Work-arounds like a low aspect rig, allow greater sail area, but in doing so end up with lower efficiency sail plans, so much more sail area is required for something approaching but not achieving the same performance.

This combination of high drag hull, lower efficiency rig, and lower stability relative to drag usually results in some mix of decreased performance, more frequent sail changes, greater heel angles for a given relative performance, bigger and harder to handle sails, and/or more motoring time.

Because of that, in a broad general sense, it is much easier to achieve a higher useable stability in a fin keel design than it is in a full keel design. That is why modern boats tend to employ more efficient hull fiorms, keels, rudders and rigs. There may be a case why someone would prefer a full keel, but if it is about greater stability, then it is not because the boat has a full keel, but because of other factors that go way beyond the length of the keel.

Jeff
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  #17  
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Re: Modern design + full keel?

Hi Jeff,
Thanks once again for clarifying it, and yes, you're right in saying that I did misunderstand it.
Thanks to all who contributed here.
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Old 03-13-2013
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Re: Modern design + full keel?

I might be sticking my neck out but when you said smaller cockpits it made me wonder... Modern boats have huge cockpits but also have a scoop transom so taking green water isn't an issue. The reason I bring this up is tat it appears you are reading far too much and not sailing enough. I would suggest getting out and sailing both designs as often as possible it could save you thousands in the end. An aside, if your boat is being pooped you are doing something very wrong, in the real world this is a very small concern to a skilled sailor. One of the big problems with forums and the internet is that rather than get out and learn what we like we read way too much about it and start to form opinions about things we know nothing about. This is meant to be positive btw
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Re: Modern design + full keel?

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Originally Posted by barefootnavigator View Post
I would suggest getting out and sailing both designs as often as possible it could save you thousands in the end.
You are absolutely right. Perhaps I should take it easier.
I'm due to start the rya competent crew soon, I'm sure that I will clear out a lot of questions I've got at the moment.

Thanks.
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Old 03-13-2013
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Re: Modern design + full keel?

not sure I fully understand the question, however I think I'll chime in on this. I should think that a "modern" Tartan T-27 would be a sweet boat. With just a bit more beam and longer waterline length she would be a great little river/lake boat what with her shallow draft. If it were possible to keep her lovely lines intact all the better~~james smith

Last edited by jameso; 03-13-2013 at 11:06 PM.
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