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  #21  
Old 03-13-2013
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Re: Modern design + full keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
And if we are going to be technical about it, an Island Packet is a very long fin keel with a post hung, spade rudder.


Modern hull forms have comparatively little drag and so would not work well with a high drag keel or rig. You would end up with a pretty foul craft with all the liabilities of both schools of thought but that did nothing very well.
To the first part of the quote: I've chartered Island Packets at least 7 times and snorkeled around them enough to know that they are beamy boats with a modified full keel (cutout forefoot) and a rudder that is attached to a skeg extending from the bottom of the keel. You can verify this by checking out the Island Packet specs on their website.

To the latter part of the quote: The Island Packets are not racers and don't pretend to be. The keel and (typical) cutter rig can make for awkward moments when short tacking. They don't point as well as fin keel boats. BUT, when the wind picks up, you've got a relatively heavy boat with appreciable form stability. This makes for a much more comfortable sail than you'll experience in most boats of comparable size. They really shine on a beam reach in 15 kts+.
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  #22  
Old 03-14-2013
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Re: Modern design + full keel?

Most yachts really shine on a beam reach in 15kts+.... just sayin'.
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  #23  
Old 03-14-2013
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Re: Modern design + full keel?

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Originally Posted by Hartley18 View Post
Most yachts really shine on a beam reach in 15kts+.... just saying.
Very true, now if one can also shine reasonably well on an upwind, along with downwind, then one has what most of us would call a reasonably well rounded boat! If it only reaches, or goes up wind, or down wind well, then you have a boat built for, not a generally speaking well rounded/sailing boat. That is what I would like to think, most of us strive for! At least I do!

A fat assed boat with a full keel will not do well in light winds, heck, a fin keel boat with a fat ass is not always good in light winds! now add the extra drag from a full keel! no thank you!

I also am not sure I would call an IP a true full keel boat, probably more of a cross breed. I do not see anything special about them personally, and that Jacket design is not that great either! A lot of money for nothing too exciting! A Catalina would be a better all around boat IMHO!

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  #24  
Old 03-14-2013
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Re: Modern design + full keel?

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Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
....
I also am not sure I would call an IP a true full keel boat, probably more of a cross breed. I do not see anything special about them personally, and that Jacket design is not that great either! A lot of money for nothing too exciting! A Catalina would be a better all around boat IMHO!

Marty
Is that (a) the deep keel fin, (b) the shoal draft fin or (c) the wing keel version you're thinking of there, Marty??

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Old 03-14-2013
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Re: Modern design + full keel?

Well you know Cam,

Being as we are BOTH "BETTER LOOKING" than the fugly moderator with a wing keel catalina, we BOTH know a deep fin will be better than a shallow or wing.........assuming one has enough water depth below us, then when it is shallower than you draw.......well then we introduce you to Mr Wilson, when I find the story of mr wilson, I will post it, quite funny actually!

marty

look up "what is a wilson" fifth letter to the editor!LOLOL
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Old 03-14-2013
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Re: Modern design + full keel?

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Originally Posted by Hartley18 View Post
Most yachts really shine on a beam reach in 15kts+.... just sayin'.
That is sort of the point. All boats are compromises, but Jeff_H's point about doing "nothing very well" is an overstatement.

I'm not an IP owner and don't intend to become one, but the comparison to a Catalina is like comparing a limousine to a Camry. Some people prefer a limousine and there's nothing wrong with that.
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Old 03-14-2013
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Re: Modern design + full keel?

Irwin's and IP's shared in that the IP designer (Bob Johnson) cut his teeth so to speak on Ted Irwin's floor building Irwin's.

I don't have extensive experience on my Irwin yet, but regularly sailed in company with a IP 34 of mid 80's vintage skippered by a very experienced owner when I had my Gemini.

She did well enough in the pointing to arrive at the designated anchor and looked a lot more comfortable for the crew than either me (on the Gemini) or CraigToo on his Sabre 34. I'll admit C2's Sabre got there well before the rest of us due to an extra 5 or more degrees of point (and less leeway than my Gem made). That just gave him time to put all the flying objects away below decks, something neither I or the IP had to do.

On the other hand when I sea trailed my Irwin she did a steady 5 knots in 7-10kts of wind at a estimated apparent 45 degrees. Nothing wrong with that in my cruisers opinion. Tacked right around too, no problem.
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Old 03-14-2013
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Re: Modern design + full keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
Very true, now if one can also shine reasonably well on an upwind, along with downwind, then one has what most of us would call a reasonably well rounded boat! If it only reaches, or goes up wind, or down wind well, then you have a boat built for, not a generally speaking well rounded/sailing boat. That is what I would like to think, most of us strive for! At least I do!
It seems many of the 1970's/80's era full-keelers were designed with the downwind (or maybe deep reach) run through the tradewinds in the tropics. In that scenario, the tracking and reaching ability of a full keel and attached rudder offers some benefit, I would assume. To your point, I don't think many of these hull types were built for short tacking or superior windward performance.
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  #29  
Old 03-14-2013
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Re: Modern design + full keel?

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Originally Posted by kwaltersmi View Post
It seems many of the 1970's/80's era full-keelers were designed with the downwind (or maybe deep reach) run through the tradewinds in the tropics. In that scenario, the tracking and reaching ability of a full keel and attached rudder offers some benefit, I would assume. To your point, I don't think many of these hull types were built for short tacking or superior windward performance.
This is where depending upon where you sail, one may need a rounded sailing boat. Here in the salish sea, you are either going upwind, or down, reaching is going across the sound, and you have generally speaking 3-4 mile space vs 20-50+ up or down wind. Reaching ability to a degree for many of us, is of no use per say.

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Re: Modern design + full keel?

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Originally Posted by chucklesR View Post
I don't have extensive experience on my Irwin yet, but regularly sailed in company with a IP 34 of mid 80's vintage skippered by a very experienced owner when I had my Gemini.

She did well enough in the pointing to arrive at the designated anchor and looked a lot more comfortable for the crew than either me (on the Gemini) or CraigToo on his Sabre 34. I'll admit C2's Sabre got there well before the rest of us due to an extra 5 or more degrees of point (and less leeway than my Gem made). That just gave him time to put all the flying objects away below decks, something neither I or the IP had to do.
My first Caribbean charter was on a CYC Sabre 362. My wife and I got beat up (including a serious fall from the companionway) sailing from JVD to Trellis Bay in a boat that couldn't sail to weather to save itself. It didn't help that the main had no roach and no battens (even my 9' Dyer Dhow has battens!). The sails were blown out and we couldn't point any better than the Island Packets we chartered years later. That was an eye-opener. Our subsequent charters included Beneteau, Waquiez, and Jenneau, before we migrated to Island Packets out of St. Thomas.

Now, we enjoy performance, but when we are on a charter, we aren't there to race and don't want any handling surprises, particularly when the wind pipes up. The IPs have their handling issues and require some muscle to steer but they are fairly solid. If we have to go to weather for any distance, like from St. John to Virgin Gorda or Culebra to St. John, we will use the "iron genny". It's nice to arrive in a more relaxed state--which is the point of our Caribbean break.

Bottom line: Give me an IP on a charter, but I'll stick to my own Clearwater 35 in home waters for a more exhilarating sail.
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