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Old 04-30-2013
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Alejuela 38 vs Pearson 365/367

Hi SailNet Community,
I am a newby having just joined SailNet today. I, together with my wife, sail a Hartley TS21 trailer sailer which we thoroughly enjoy. Apart from enjoying the sailing life I equally enjoy being an armchair sailor when not on the water. Being in the profession of building design I have more than a passing interest in yacht design, particularly cruising yachts capable of making blue water passages. I take my hat off to all yacht designers and marvel at their ingenuity when it comes to creating a live-able space within a difficult shaped plan.
On that note I am curious to learn the virtues of the Alejuela 38 and the Pearson 356/367. Both these craft are spoken of in glowing terms but is one better than the other when it comes to making long distance passages. I am particularly interested to learn if the Alejuela's canoe stern is preferable to the Pearson's more traditional one? I have read that the canoe stern is better in a following sea. Is this correct?
I appreciate there is a trade off with the canoe stern in terms of buoyancy and room down below but is this a realistic negative?
I note the Pearson has a separate shower stall which some say is a must have. Having no experience with either arrangement the thought of a separate shower cubicle does seem inviting but once again is the alternative that hard to live with?
I look forward to all replies from those who know. Let the discussion begin!
Cheers,
David
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Old 04-30-2013
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Re: Alejuela 38 vs Pearson 365/367

Some comments on the Pearson 365. I wouldn't classify it as a blue water cruiser. It's a spacious coastal cruiser for its age and size, but pretty slow. PHRF is 204 which is slower than the Pearson 28 of the same era! As a comparison, the Pearson 36 of similar age is rated at 138.
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Old 05-02-2013
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Re: Alejuela 38 vs Pearson 365/367

For deep water the Alajuela has it hands down (all things being equal). The shape of the stern is more styling than anything. Bob Perry has designed a huge number of double enders and even he says it has nothing to do with "parting the seas".

Those two boats were designed for very different uses so you should define your needs more before choosing one over the other. The Pearson would be a better choice for coastal cruising IMHO.

The Alajuela has a much higher "row away" factor though - the Pearson is a bit of a bleach bottle in comparison.
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Old 05-03-2013
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Re: Alejuela 38 vs Pearson 365/367

Dear JimsCAL and SloopJonB,
Thanks for your replies however your replies have raised more questions. JimsCAL, what does 'PHRF' stand for and SloopJonB, what is meant by "coastal crusing IMHO" and what is the "row away" factor (I said I was a 'newby')?
Interesting that Bob Perry states that the canoe stern has nothing to do with parting the seas. If not, why design a boat with a canoe stern if it doesn't have any real benefits? I have read an account of one couple who changed from a traditional transom sterned yacht to one with a canoe stern and they claimed the difference was substantial when sailing downwind with a large following sea. They felt the canoe stern rode up and over the waves rather than be pushed around by them! It sounded good to me in theory.
I am curious to learn why the Pearson is better suited to coastal cruising. Is it to do with build strength or is there more to it than that?
SloopJonB, you said I should define my needs more before choosing one over the other. I guess I'd be looking at more blue water cruising than coastal cruising. The blue water aspect is something I'd like to experience one day. Coastal cruising I could virtually achieve with my trailer sailer provided the conditions were favourable. I like the thought (dream) of sailing over the horizon and losing sight of land and being totally dependent on the vessel that I am doing this in. I see this as a one off experience rather than one I would embark on regularly. Possibly one where I would purchase the right boat make the passage then sell at the end of it. Speed is not a huge essential but seaworthiness and comfort are. My current yacht doesn't go anywhere in a hurry (5 to 6 knots) generally but this is part of its attraction. When I'm drifting aimlessly along is when I seem to switch off from all outside pressures and stresses.
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Old 05-03-2013
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Re: Alejuela 38 vs Pearson 365/367

Gunna:
You have been reading way too much and not sailing enough.

You generalize way too much, all double enders do this, all transom sterned boats do this. Horse pucky. I have more double enders on the water than ANY DESIGNER ALIVE. You should write that down 100 times. No, I'll revise that, 500 times. Then if you can still type we can debate.

I'm ready for some kumite.
Ich, ni, san chi,,,,,,,,,
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Last edited by bobperry; 05-04-2013 at 12:07 AM.
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Old 05-04-2013
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Re: Alejuela 38 vs Pearson 365/367

Quote:
Originally Posted by GUNNADAVE View Post
Dear JimsCAL and SloopJonB,
Thanks for your replies however your replies have raised more questions. JimsCAL, what does 'PHRF' stand for and SloopJonB, what is meant by "coastal crusing IMHO" and what is the "row away" factor (I said I was a 'newby')?
Interesting that Bob Perry states that the canoe stern has nothing to do with parting the seas. If not, why design a boat with a canoe stern if it doesn't have any real benefits? I have read an account of one couple who changed from a traditional transom sterned yacht to one with a canoe stern and they claimed the difference was substantial when sailing downwind with a large following sea. They felt the canoe stern rode up and over the waves rather than be pushed around by them! It sounded good to me in theory.
I am curious to learn why the Pearson is better suited to coastal cruising. Is it to do with build strength or is there more to it than that?
SloopJonB, you said I should define my needs more before choosing one over the other. I guess I'd be looking at more blue water cruising than coastal cruising. The blue water aspect is something I'd like to experience one day. Coastal cruising I could virtually achieve with my trailer sailer provided the conditions were favourable. I like the thought (dream) of sailing over the horizon and losing sight of land and being totally dependent on the vessel that I am doing this in. I see this as a one off experience rather than one I would embark on regularly. Possibly one where I would purchase the right boat make the passage then sell at the end of it. Speed is not a huge essential but seaworthiness and comfort are. My current yacht doesn't go anywhere in a hurry (5 to 6 knots) generally but this is part of its attraction. When I'm drifting aimlessly along is when I seem to switch off from all outside pressures and stresses.
PHRF is the acronym for Performance Handicap Rating Formula (or Fleet). A rating is given in seconds per mile that a boat is "owed" over a base boat. It's a quick comparison of a boats performance relative to others because it is based on observed results, not boat measurements.

Coastal cruising is basically staying near enough to shore that one can run & hide from bad weather rather than having to be capable of withstanding whatever comes your way. The vicinity of 100 miles offshore probably covers it.

The row away factor is an expression that covers a boats esthetic appeal - how much you enjoy looking back at it as you row away. It has nothing to do with its performance. In fact it can be argued that it bears a nearly inverse relationship to performance - an old wood schooner has MAJOR row away factor while a current race boat has nearly none.

The Pearson would be roomier, brighter down below, have a more comfortable cockpit and so forth compared to the Alajuela but the A'la would be (probably) built stronger and be more seaworthy in snotty weather.

Methinks you should buy a coastal cruiser for now - the questions you are asking indicate you are quite a ways from the experience and skills needed to venture into blue water. Get a cheaper boat for the sailing you will be doing for the next few years and not the "ideal" boat for your future dreams - they will probably change before you get there.
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Re: Alejuela 38 vs Pearson 365/367

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
I have more double enders on the water than ANY DESIGNER EVER.
Pretty sure I fixed it for you.
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Re: Alejuela 38 vs Pearson 365/367

Thanks SloopJonB for your comprehensive reply and explanation. All makes perfect sense and I particularly like the 'row away factor'. Can I trouble you to explain the acronym IMHO in relation to coastal cruising?
Your advice in relation to starting with a coastal cruiser before stepping up to a blue water boat is appreciated. I am not the total novice that you may think having sailed sheltered waters on various craft for the past 40 years or so however my experience on blue water craft is zilch and I accept that I'm still in nappies in this regard.
Heading offshore is a dream of mine and quite possibly a pipe dream at that but I am a firm believer in holding onto dreams in the hope that they one day become reality.
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Old 05-04-2013
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Re: Alejuela 38 vs Pearson 365/367

IMHO: In My Humble Opinion

The Pearson 365 is listed on Mahini Exeditions' list of boats to consider for offshore cruising - thus it could be considered for blue water cruising: Mahina Expedition - Selecting A Boat for Offshore Cruising .

The two boats you mention occupy different price ranges. Looking a Yachtworld, a Pearson 365 can be had for anywhere between asking prices of $30-77K, while the Alejeula 38 ranges from $79-135K.

Many posters are taken with the idea of sailing away from it all. As they become more experienced with sailing and living aboard a boat, some decide on other plans. There are many pleasant ways to enjoy boats and sailing.

If you are serious about bluewater cruising and like double-enders, do a Yachtworld search using "Bob Perry", "Robert Perry", or "Perry", to find a good selection of well-designed offshore boats.

Last edited by jameswilson29; 05-04-2013 at 07:43 AM.
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Old 05-04-2013
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Re: Alejuela 38 vs Pearson 365/367

Sincere thanks for the endorsements you guys.

I totally aggree with JonB about using PHRF ratings to get a quick estimate of a boat's speed potential. While PHRF ratings may not always be perfect they are in most cases quite accurate.

I am not condeming double enders. I am just saying that within the category "double enders" is a tremendously wide variety of boats ranging from Westsail 32's to my new
62' LOA, 19,000 lb. SLIVER project now underway. These two examples share nothing in common except pointy fannies. It's hard to give them consitant performance characteristics. No, let me re-state that. It's impossible to give them all a consistant perormance profiles. While one double ender may have minimal bouyancy aft another, like my Valiant series, may have considerable bouyancy aft.

And I would say the same for transom sterned boats. Today we have boats with grotesquely ( my call) wide sterns and I would not try to lump those boats in with boats like the Alberg 35 or the Cal 40 with trim little fannies. There have been many stellar offshore boats with transoms and I'll bet more than a few double enders that were offshore dogs.

I think the best approach is to evaluate each boat indvidually and avoid the "broad brush".

Keep in mind that from time to time I like to "poke the dog with a stick" just for the hell of it and see what arguments I can generate. I find it fun to debate the elements of yacht design.

Here is a rendering of the SLIVER and another rendering of a 45'er I am currently working on for a Swedish client. Both double enders. Both very different boats.
Attached Thumbnails
Alejuela 38 vs Pearson 365/367-kim3d.jpg   Alejuela 38 vs Pearson 365/367-ibold45-r45.jpg  
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Last edited by bobperry; 05-04-2013 at 12:49 PM.
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