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Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum > Boat Reviews
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Boat Reviews This forum has all types of boat reviews. Take a look, Dream, Agree, Dissagree.... but enjoy.


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  #11  
Old 02-23-2010
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Ed Massey

I had not read the guidelines regarding Special Interests groups. Now that I have reviewed them I can see as a sailboat dealer there is a chance for a conflict of interest in the eyes of some of the readers. Having been in the business for the past 33 years I thought I could potentially add to the quality of some of these discussions. However no matter what I say it could be construed as coming from a boat dealer and not an individual. With that thought in mind it is probably best that I refrain from any further comments. Boat builders, boat dealers and boat purchasers and sellers are part of the lifestyle that we all love so much. But not everyone will see it that way.
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  #12  
Old 02-23-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EdMassey View Post
I had not read the guidelines regarding Special Interests groups. Now that I have reviewed them I can see as a sailboat dealer there is a chance for a conflict of interest in the eyes of some of the readers. Having been in the business for the past 33 years I thought I could potentially add to the quality of some of these discussions. However no matter what I say it could be construed as coming from a boat dealer and not an individual. With that thought in mind it is probably best that I refrain from any further comments. Boat builders, boat dealers and boat purchasers and sellers are part of the lifestyle that we all love so much. But not everyone will see it that way.
The disclosure statement is there for a purpose. I think most of us are intelligent enough to see through what is written. Having said that and what you wrote, we sailors still like to hear what you have to say and other like you. I know I do. Healthy debate is healthy. I truly believe there is a crying out from us sailors to debate with the experts in the field, hence all these discussion boards that have sprung up throughout the Internet to find answers we have questions. We might not like some of the answers we hear and likewise. It is the silence from the experts that is deafening.
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  #13  
Old 02-23-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EdMassey View Post
I had not read the guidelines regarding Special Interests groups. Now that I have reviewed them I can see as a sailboat dealer there is a chance for a conflict of interest in the eyes of some of the readers. Having been in the business for the past 33 years I thought I could potentially add to the quality of some of these discussions. However no matter what I say it could be construed as coming from a boat dealer and not an individual. With that thought in mind it is probably best that I refrain from any further comments. Boat builders, boat dealers and boat purchasers and sellers are part of the lifestyle that we all love so much. But not everyone will see it that way.
I dissagree with that and have invited many designers, including Gerry Douglas and Bob Perry (just to name a few) to this board. You may ask them. We have been in the process of trying to set up a special forum where people could meet the designers of these boats and throw out questions. Unfortunately, my time has been very limited due to our cruising. I hope to change that soon.

I have no problem with you discussing your views on these boats, Ed (btw, we have met too). I am the tech editor for the 400's, and I take the critique in stride. I do not always agree with it, but I can put up a pretty good argument too.

I will tell you that the one thing I dissagree with on your discussion of Melissa is her perception of the boats. Especially in production boats, people buy what they see. They do not buy what the designers tell them. I have always felt this was one of Catalina's greatest attributes - that they are traditional, have a great reputation, and ANYONE can pick up the phone and talk with Gerry. I have been called by Frank myself.

Regarding her comments on the 445, it was built (as you might have alluded to) to be a performance oriented boat. She was meant to be raced coastal (though I believe she could be taken offshore and raced). As such, weight is important and there has to be a compromise between comfort and speed. You cannot compare it to the H49 as that was not its design point. That is my understanding and I welcome any comments to the contrary as I have not spoken directly with Gerry on this.

In summary, Ed, I welcome your thoughts and contributions here. You most certainly are not the only boat broker on this site. All we ask is that you put it in your signature so that others may weigh your comments appropriately, as they weigh mine, and as they would weigh Gerry's or B Perry's, or Melissa's, or the guy that has never even sailed before. There is not a comment here that is not appreciated.

You are welcome to discuss this matter with me directly if you wish. I you would like, drop me a PM and I will shoot you my phone number, or you may get it directly off any Mainsheet under the tech editor section (C400).

Regards,

Brian
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  #14  
Old 02-23-2010
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BTW - I will be unavailble for some hours so pardon any lack of response.
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  #15  
Old 02-23-2010
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Thank you Melissa for your observations. I couldn't make the Miami show this year, but did see at least a couple of those boats at Newport. I wish others who saw the boats would join in and offer their perspectives. I couldn't agree more that a spirited, (hopefully) courteous exchange here on the relative merits of construction and design of the new boats out there would make for a terrific thread here. I would also really appreciate it if Ed and other brokers, dealers and designers would chime in. Ed, please don't let the push back here dissuade you from participating. It should go without saying that you are right when you say that those in the boating business are an integral part of the sailing world. This site can be a great opportunity for you and others to educate the rest of us on your perspective.
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  #16  
Old 02-23-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrna View Post
I have toured the factories of a few builders but not Hunter. .... I also used to work for DuPont in fiberglass composite research for in both layup, destructive and non-destructive testing. I have 3 degrees including a master degree in Industrial engineering. I am a NASA contract test pilot and 20 year military test pilot. So the bottom line is I know a thing or two about systems, engineering, composites and a few other areas. ...
Whowwww!!!!

Melrna,
I have suggested that you have a look at the First 50, because it seemed to me that you appreciate well designed boats. The relatively new First 50 (and the 45) are not only “excellent boats for those looking for performance” as you put it. I think that you have not been inside one (I apologize if otherwise). I believe that if you had you would immediately understand the cruising potential of the boat. The interiors are superb, very well designed and give a notion of space and good living, very rare on cruiser-racers of that size and certainly have nothing to do with the interior of the older model.

When the 45 appeared on the market it has come only with a draft of 2.4 and 2.7 and that would put a limit on the boat cruising capacities. I saw the boat at the time of its presentation in a boat show (Dusseldorf?) and have asked to a European major dealer if they would not make a short draft version for cruising? He said No, no way. This is a cruiser-racer.

I remember that I have said something like: Humm, I think you are wrong. I remember that the guy looked at me as If I was crazy…what could I know that he didn’t know? Well, I am an Architect and a sailor and I can recognize an interior with quality and cruising potential. It seems that the clients also. That’s why you have now a version with a 2.00 m draft ,that, obviously is not for racing, but for cruising.

As you know these boats are a lot better than the Oceanis for offshore work (and of course, they sail better). The First flexes a lot less and they have a superior stability, mainly in what regards safety stability, but of course you are right, the Oceanis 50, even if it could, it is not really designed for that purpose.

Bottom line, if you have not been inside one of the new first (45/50) don’t miss it. I would like to have your opinion on the quality of the interior space.
Please see the 360º Film:

http://www.beneteau.com/fr/voile/pro...=6&PRO_CODE=25

Curiously the new First 40, even if it shares some of the aesthetics, it is quite the opposite. That one is a racing boat and has the interior space of a racing boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrna View Post
Paulo, …. The fact that no traveller exist on this size boat in unbelievable. Sail trim suffers and the ability to dump the lift during overpowering situations is borderline dangerous. …. Each has it own characteristics from a design standpoint. If one is going to buy a 50' sailboat, the designer should at least make the boat up to coastal cruising standards borderline bluewater cruising. My comments reflect that statement.
It is possible that you are exaggerating the importance of the traveler, for cruising, regarding the new system that is many times associated with German sheeting.

Have you already tried the system? I didn’t but I have heard good things about it, from sailors that have it on their boats.

The Hanse boats are a lot sportier than the Oceanis and they have more demanding clients. If the system was not working or was dangerous they would already have changed it (I believe they were the ones to introduce that system on the mass production boats, several years ago). They used it even in their top of the range (big and expensive boats).

http://www.hanseyachtsnz.com/images/...%20Sailing.jpg

http://www.noa-yachting.com/galerija...anse%20540.jpg

The new Moody use also that system and that is not on account of cheap mass production boats (they are expensive boats). I think they use it because it works, it is simple and easy to use.

http://www.moodyboats.com/gb/unterne...3&L=6&type=666

Saying that I would prefer the old traveler (but I like fast boats) and the system on the Oceanis did look to me a little bit undersized, but I have only looked at the photos.

Regards

Paulo
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  #17  
Old 02-23-2010
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Thanks Paulo for the links. Hanse, Moody, Malo and other European boats in this class cost here about 200-350k more for the same boat as those at the boat show. The First 50 was not at the show therefore, I didn't report it. I can only report what I saw. I am not in the market for a new boat but my dockmate is. I will pass the First 50 onto him to consider. Thanks.
I am always up to checking out new boats that I haven't been on.
The travelers less system I cannot see being the racer in me I guess. I have sailed OPB's where the traveler didn't work and stuck in the middle position. Didn't work for me or the boat it seemed. But I am open to new designs to see how it works. Our hope is to sail the Benneteau to see how we like it.
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  #18  
Old 02-24-2010
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Originally Posted by Melrna View Post
.. Hanse, Moody, Malo and other European boats in this class cost here about 200-350k more for the same boat as those at the boat show. ...
Melrna,
Let me make two corrections:

I have said that the First 50 had a shallow draft version. It turns out that they only advertise two types of keels, being the less depth 2.4M (on the 45 they have three, one of them with 2.0M). I don't know if they will make a 2.0 version for the 50.


Regarding the prices of the boats you mention above and the 200-352k they cost more than the Beneteau e Jeanneau, that is only true on the Malo. The Hanse is only slightly more expensive and the Moody a lot more but not that much.

To give you an idea I will post European prices, with 20% VAT included. All boats with sails and basic equipment:

Beneteau Oceanis 50 - 251 040 euros
Beneteau First 50 - 329 976
Jeanneau DS 50 - 254 963
Dufour 485 - 313 054
Hanse 470 - 203 900
Hanse 545 - 328 900
Moody 45 - 285 844

As you have said the Oceanis and the Jeanneau DS are pointing directly to the charter market and to the ones that want a boat with a big and bright interior. The Dufour and the Hanse are faster, more enjoyable to sail and are more pointed as owner´s boat. The Dufour has (in my opinion) a slight better finish, the Hanse can be made in Epoxy (almost all chose that option) and that makes it a stronger boat. It has also the advantage of an easy handling (front sail on a traveler and big main). The Hanse has lots of options and that brings the price up but permits you to personalise the boat.
The Moody (only has a 45) is on a completely diferent category, with much better finish. It has also a front sail on a traveller and is a suprisingly good sailing boat, amazingly fast for the type of boat. I believe the price is relativelly low because the boat is made by Hanse Yatchs and that permits some scale economy (some of the hardware is the same you will find on the Hanses).

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 02-24-2010 at 05:07 PM.
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  #19  
Old 02-24-2010
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Thanks Paulo, I will pass this on to Ed. He has two major requirements; draft less than 6.5 feet(2m) and mast height less than 68' for bridges on the ICW. From looking at the European boats most don't make one or either requirement. But it is worth checking into from the US dealers. The US boats might be configured different.
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Old 02-24-2010
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This is a great thread. I hope Ed comes back and contributes to the discussion.

I also love the idea of an "Ask the Designer" section of the site. That would be phenomenal.

Mel's right. We need more participation by the industry.
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