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Boat Reviews This forum has all types of boat reviews. Take a look, Dream, Agree, Dissagree.... but enjoy.


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  #11  
Old 09-07-2010
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My husband and I bought our Cal 27 in May of this year. The draft is 4' and we've actually been trapped in a slip (with 5' MLW) once when there was a very low tide. I wouldn't count on that dock with 4' of water at all. Also, as far as wintering there...I am not sure but I think you'd need a bubbler. Maybe someone with more knowledge can answer that one. We are planning to haul out and keep Shaman on the hard for the winter.

The advantage of the inboard is that it powers your batteries and run all your on board electricity! Plus, if properly cared for, a diesel engine can last you 30-40 years.

Other potential expenses: new (or new to you) sails. And perhaps the rudder will need work. And you might find you'd really like to have a bimini installed. Or perhaps the seat cushions (especially if you are planning to sleep aboard for one or two nights) need to be replaced... Also, have you considered the advantages of a chemical toilet over a marine head? We were happy to get a boat with a chemical toilet but now we realize that there are definite advantages to the head! (For instance, that chemical toilet only holds so much, which does limit the amount of time we can spend on the boat--only one-nighters).

Tiller versus wheel: we've got a tiller and it is wonderfully responsive, but the next boat we buy will have a wheel!

As far as size goes, well, as I said we've already got plans to buy another boat in a few years. The next one will definitely be bigger!!! However we do love our current boat and it is very good for learning.
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  #12  
Old 09-08-2010
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I'm now leaning towards IB and wheel.

Thx for the comments re: cavitation w/ an OB, and the need for a good IB engine to start (and avoid early expensive work). I also read that a diesel is much more fuel efficient. And, there are other reasons... my gf wants hot water... more later in this post.

As for tiller vs. wheel... I'm thinking the wheel option is more popular (regardless of the merits) and so would be easier to sell later. I hadn't thought of the swing room needed for a tiller. I remember even on our rented rainbows getting in each others way with the tiller. Both use limited cockpit space: a tiller, swing space (and the need to keep that space clear), and a wheel, static space. A wheel might be removed when docked or anchored (a tiller could also be kept out of the way)? And, a wheel may be more fun (there's some reason for its popularity). In any case, this is just where I'm leaning... I'll try to actually see one or more C27's this weekend.

Is an Edson wheel a good one? I read a couple of listings that mentioned this is what they had.

I don't know how a manual marine head with macerator works -- not sure I need the details, but I have no idea. It "sounds" better than a chemical, port-a-potty type head though. Thx. for the comment about the limitation of the chemical one.

How do we get a shower on a C27? Is it an original option? Or is it something that's added later? One boat had the shower in the cockpit (which is supposed to be better for drainage etc.). Does this require a hot water heater? Does such a heater come with an IB, or is it, along with some shower apparatus, something added? How would we add one? Are there places on the Chesapeake that do this work or do we buy a kit (I'm handy enough)?

Re: our 4 foot pier. The comments about this are noted. I'll take some more measurements this weekend and also check the tide. I do know that there's very soft silt at the bottom... soft enough that a stick goes right through it w/ little resistance for some further distance. A C27 seems the ideal size boat for us. And, the pier is my gf's dad's and being able to use it is an important consideration. His neighbor has a sailboat of similar size, and they have no problem... I'll have to ask about the draft on their's.

As for winterizing... not sure... is there a place near Pasadena, MD where we'd be able to take the boat and have it put on stands for the winter (and get any annual maintenance performed)? I'm guessing this is the case.

Last edited by rconn2; 09-08-2010 at 10:25 PM.
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  #13  
Old 09-09-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rconn2 View Post
I'm now leaning towards IB and wheel.
A wheel might be removed when docked or anchored (a tiller could also be kept out of the way)? And, a wheel may be more fun (there's some reason for its popularity). In any case, this is just where I'm leaning... I'll try to actually see one or more C27's this weekend.

Is an Edson wheel a good one? I read a couple of listings that mentioned this is what they had.
Wheels are more natural. Left goes left, right goes right, just like a car. However, tillers provide better feel under sail. I prefer tillers for that reason. Plus they're mechanically simpler. But you run into trouble the first few times out with new sailors until they figure out that tillers work opposite of wheels.

Tillers were standard equipment on most (all?) C-27s prior to the 270. Maybe some late model boats had wheels but I don't think so. The cockpit on the C-27 wasn't designed for them so most wheels out there on C-27s are likely retrofits.

Edsons are a standard retrofit. I looked at one for my C-27 until I saw the price tag. Keep in mind that with a wheel pedestal, you lose that cockpit space to sit on either side permanently even with a small wheel. The pedestal takes up a lot of the space between the seats. You'll understand when you board a C-27 equipped with one. At least with a tiller you can tip it up out of the way when at anchor to make room.

Wheels vs. tiller is personal preference. Go with what you prefer. On a C-27, I prefer tiller. On larger boats (and my next boat), I'll have a wheel.

Quote:
How do we get a shower on a C27? Is it an original option? Or is it something that's added later? One boat had the shower in the cockpit (which is supposed to be better for drainage etc.). Does this require a hot water heater? Does such a heater come with an IB, or is it, along with some shower apparatus, something added? How would we add one? Are there places on the Chesapeake that do this work or do we buy a kit (I'm handy enough)?
Showers were typically aftermarket. I've seen some C-27 diagrams showing a shower sump in the head but I don't know if those were factory or not. Definitely not in the cockpit.

Showers don't require a water heater and no, they don't come with the inboard. They need to be added just like a household water heater and will draw power from the onboard batteries. Quite a lot of power too so you need a good size bank to run it.

If it isn't present it can certainly be added. All depends on your budget and requirements. You can do it yourself if you're electrically and plumbing handy or you can hire someone to do the install for you. Plenty of marine electricians on the Bay. Cover your wallet to keep it from screaming. It can get pricey.

Quote:
Re: our 4 foot pier. The comments about this are noted. I'll take some more measurements this weekend and also check the tide. I do know that there's very soft silt at the bottom... soft enough that a stick goes right through it w/ little resistance for some further distance. A C27 seems the ideal size boat for us. And, the pier is my gf's dad's and being able to use it is an important consideration. His neighbor has a sailboat of similar size, and they have no problem... I'll have to ask about the draft on their's.
Keep in mind you aren't pushing a small stick into the mud...you're pushing 2000 pounds of lead fin attached to 6700-7000 pounds displacement sailboat into that mud. You tend to grind to a nice, gentle halt. Getting off is a challenge without high tide.

Quote:
As for winterizing... not sure... is there a place near Pasadena, MD where we'd be able to take the boat and have it put on stands for the winter (and get any annual maintenance performed)? I'm guessing this is the case.
Lots of yards in the area and more in Annapolis or across the Bay in Kent Narrows. Google around and plot them out. Make sure the yard offers the services you want for land storage and the cost is reasonable. I tend to do my own work so that is a requirement of mine for storage. Not all yards allow do-it-yourselfers. Cost is also factor but generally the further you get from Annapolis, the cheaper it gets. If you're willing to sail and drive to the yard, rates and features are reasonable. I can make good and not-so-good recommendations depending on how far you want to go.

Matt
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  #14  
Old 09-09-2010
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One of my ASA instructors was on a boat that caught fire due to gas. Ever since then will never go out on a boat that is carrying gas.

Wheel seems a lot more convenient while sailing (no banging people's knees when you need to turn). The tiller can fold up at anchor giving more space in the cockpit.
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  #15  
Old 09-09-2010
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A solar shower bag is a simple option and shower in the cockpit. Add a screen if you anchor in popular spots. Or hoist the French flag when you shower. A 20L gives 4 navy showers.

I would go for simple over complex every time. solar shower, tiller, outboard, chemical toilet, solar panel.

You will get a crab pot on your prop at some time, much easier with the outboard to untangle.

If you have easily accesible pump out facilities then a conventional boat toilet plus holding tank is OK too [but it will stop working at some point!]

Catalina do a wing keel too on the 27 giving 3 feet draft BUT it you get stuck in mud with a wing keel perceived wisdom is you better call a towboat

Last edited by TQA; 09-09-2010 at 08:46 PM.
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I think you actually get more room with a wheel given that the tiller sticks well in to the cockpit. Other than that, it's just a matter of preference. As for IB/OB, I think the whole debate is overrated. I've had both and I could give you arguments for both sides. If you do go the IB route, do make sure there is ample room for doing maintenance.
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I think the point being made here is you should look at both, crawl around on them both.

On the tiller equipped models, there is a pretty long "swing", but that also affords you to place the tiller 'tween your legs and do an awful lot with the sails by yourself. (not to mention what it does for your ego, LOL)
Also, the tiller "swings up" as well, therefore, hardly any space used at all.
With a wheel, that ain't happenin'. and you and your spouse will never sit together. (that may be an advantage, I dunno)
There are pluses and minuses, but don't infer that that one over the other is going to be worth more at trade in time, they are not. The salesman will tell you there is, but...no, no added value either way.

Seeing as how I'm thinking about it...
givens: year & condition.
from "high to low" (and there isn't but, oh a grand difference from top to bottom)
Tall rig, inboard diesel
Tall rig, inboard gas
Tall rig, OB
Shoal rig, diesel
shoal, gas
shoal OB
Std. rig, diesel
Std. rig gas
std rig, OB

One person will say "I don' want no tiller" and the other will say "dam that wheel and all of its parts"

Part of it is geography as well, where you are there may be a lot of wheels
Where I am, I'd need an abacus to get a percentage of wheels vs tillers.

It is ALL personal preference, but please, for your own piece of mind, spend time on them both, doing real stuff, not just sitting at the dock.

Water/shower... It isn't going to be inside, the bulkheads encasing the head are load bearing, and wood, no unnecessary water spray in there, please.

Water capacity is what, 12-18 gallons? plan accordingly. "Powered" water was also an option. From the tank, an electric pump powers the sink that drains out a thru hull,(along withe the ice box.) some into the bilge, yuk. (one note, close the thru hull while sailing, if you go hard over, you may fill up the sink & icebox! ) You could plumb a shower outside if you'd like. The drains in the cockpit will handle it. Otherwise, there was a manual pump type sink faucet thing.
Oh, yea, the "ice box." Its a fiberglass tub you can store a body in. except its not insulated, fix that, willya?

Hot water? not unless the P.O. put it in, thats a lot of plumbing on a 27ft boat. One of those black bag showers work well if you have to.

Head and stuff.
Most cat-27's came with a "regular" marine pump type head and a black water tank. If the boats you're looking at don't have one more than likely its been changed out to something else.
In many cases a macerator pump is also an add-on, while it does help in breaking up "stuff" its also a big point of failure.

one point to note.
All of the options listed ADD weight. and with 4 feet of water to swim in, that isn't what you're looking for.
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Last edited by cardiacpaul; 09-10-2010 at 10:32 AM.
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  #18  
Old 09-10-2010
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I would go for simple over complex every time...
This is the best advice you'll ever get. Though it's hard to give up the cool, complicated stuff, it sure makes things a lot easier.
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For 10K you can DEFINITELY find what you are looking for.
However, stop! Is that 10K boat an outboard? If it is I recommend you keep looking. Outboards, even long-prop out boards, are not my generally recommended unless you are in protected waters. Waves can completely submerge an outboard motor. Chesapeake area I would go inboard for sure.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trisstan87 View Post
For 10K you can DEFINITELY find what you are looking for.
However, stop! Is that 10K boat an outboard? If it is I recommend you keep looking. Outboards, even long-prop out boards, are not my generally recommended unless you are in protected waters. Waves can completely submerge an outboard motor. Chesapeake area I would go inboard for sure.
Tristan, at the risk of being rude, you don't have enough experience in any boat, outboard, inboard, or engineless under sail, to have any idea what you're recommending. There are many many smaller excellent and sea worthy boats that use an outboard to keep weight and complexity down. While cavitation in certain conditions can be problematic, an outboard isn't a deal breaker. My neighbors way back in the 70's had an outboard C27 that they cruised all over northern Lake Michigan and Lake Huron without any issues at all. Waves on the Great Lakes in bad weather are short, steep, high in frequency, and just generally nasty. Any that submerges an outboard will thoroughly poop the cockpit. The engine will survive just fine so long as it doesn't remain submerged. Another factor that you aren't considering in that 10k price is the condition of the hull, deck core, rig, and sails. Replacing an outboard is cheap compared to dealing with any major issues concerning the basic integrity of the boat, and we're not even talking about rebuilding or repowering an older inboard.

To the OP, make a list of priorities. At the top are the survey condition of the hull and deck, then mast/rigging, and inboard if a C27 you're considering has one. IB vs OB? There are very good arguments for both. You'll have to make the call. Wheel vs. tiller, shower or not... those are all secondary considerations... nice if you find what you want, but they shouldn't turn you away from a boat that otherwise is in excellent condition and priced fairly. A mascerator on a 27' boat? It's just another thing that can break and requires energy to run. Just be very careful of what goes into the head. Keep things as simple as you can, and add capacity/frills later if you really feel you can't live without them. Power for running lights, masthead, steaming, anchor, navigation/sailing instrument(s), bilge pump, cabin lighting, and the luxury of a sound system. And don't forget the condition of the sails. They can be expensive and make a huge difference in the sailing quality of any boat. Yes, prop drag on an inboard with a fixed prop is significant. It can be nearly a knot in boat speed while sailing. Not a deal breaker for cruising, but just something to know. Keep an eye out for a folding prop on ebay or the like and change it out if you feel the need if you end up with a C27 with an inboard. Something like a Martec prop won't be as efficient when motoring, and takes a good while to bite when in reverse, but they're simple, serviceable, and will gain you that knot of boat speed. Have fun, and don't be in any big hurry to find your boat. The right one always seems to find it's way into your life! Cheers!

Last edited by puddinlegs; 09-10-2010 at 06:20 PM.
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