Does Fiberglass Live Forever?

[camaraderie]

Sounds like a really high asking price for that boat Snider...but assuming you can figure out the right price...I would have no hesitation about buying a boat that old if kept up well.

[snider]

We'll see what happens. I've got a price range in mind. Although when compared to other rivals for sale, I've seen anywhere from 40's to 60's.

[Moonfish]

I know of a 1959 Rawson 30 here in the islands with a solid fiberglass hull and deck that still feels solid as a rock. Literally. The hull is about 1-inch thick - all over! Including the deck. Of course, back then they really had no idea how long or well FRP would last, so they slopped it on thick. And these guys must've figured "the thicker the better".

[Jeff_H]

One quick point, actually its a myth that early designers did not know how strong fiberglass was and so they slapped it on thick. There was a lot of material available on fiberglass after WWII. They knew precisely how strong and flexible fiberglass was. The thickness was not about strength but about the fact that fiberglass was far more prone to flexing than the wooden planking it replaced and since fiberglass is prone to fatique, flexure was seen as the enemy since it greatly shortens the life of hull.

Since early FG designers and boat builders were unwilling to add internal framing, they tried to thicken the hulls to resist flexure. That thickness was increased with resin rich laminates and large percentages of non-directional glass, which is now understood to increase fatigue, brittleness, and reduce impact resistance. What they ended up with was the worst of all worlds, boats that flexed a lot (as compared to later designs with internal framing systems), boats that had unnecessarily heavy hulls, (reducing ballast ratios, and carrying capacity while increasing the loads on all of the hardware or in an impact) and boats that are prone to reduced strength over time due to flexure as well as the choice of laminate and methods used to lay up the boat.

The reality is that dispite the extra thickness of their hulls they are not as strong as properly engineered later models.

Respectfully,
Jeff

[JohnRPollard]

Snider,

I spent a fair bit of time cruising in a Brett-designed Rival 38. They are solid boats, well-suited for cruising. The 38 could weather a big blow very nicely, although the trade-off was that it was not particularly great in light air. I would guess that the 34 would offer similar performance.

I haven't followed the pricing on the 34s much, but based on what I've seen for the 36s and 38s, that asking price seems about right. Rivals are fairly well-respected boats, particularly in the UK. But one thing to keep in mind is that many of them were bought as kits and owner-finished. I believe factory-finished boats command a higher price.

There is another SailNet member, JimH, that is temporarily working in England, and who I believe has been studying the market for Rivals and similar boats (like Nicholsons). He would probably have some insights to share. He has a thread running in "Buying a Boat" ( http://www.sailnet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39986 ), so you might consider sending him a PM.

Good luck!

[Gryzio]

I think today the only time Fiberglass lasts forever is when you need to dispose of the boat.

I would be saying about the same as most here. Care being a big factor in longevity. I see good old boats that will out live myself with care.

What I look at in these situations is what boat do I want? Some of the fiberglass boats from the 70's are not built today. So, if I want that particular Design Plan, then odds are I will buy the boat from the 70's to have it.

Heck, there is a Herreshoff Design I love and want. It really old, but, I think these were wood or fiberglass depending on space in time. If, I want one, I will have to buy one or build my own new (I have the design plans). I guessing for the cost of Lead for a Keel I can buy one for the Lead and hope the wood/fiberglass be good enough to last a 3-5 years.

[Rockter]

You see enough of them here in the UK, so they must have something going for them.

They are expensive here, as is everything.

Fibreglass is a good material. I had a few blister problems when the ship was in the warm water of Clear Lake, Texas, but the cold Scottish water is kinder to the hull. Blistering has stopped, at least as far as I can see.

I beg to differ about the fatigue arguments. Fibreglass is a composite, and they are very good indeed in fatigue.

I like the GRP material. It has served me well. Be careful, it does burn readily, and the fumes will choke you quickly. We found that out when we were welding the tanks. We were glad to have the fire hose ready. It was needed.

My ship is in fresh water right now. I would not like to see how wood does there. GRP has served me well.

Rockter.

[snider]

Thanks for the info. I've read elsewhere about the design thickness of the early fiberglass boats and agree with you Jeff. I'm going to look at the boat tomorrow. Due to my budget I've been looking at Shannon 28's and the smaller Pacific Seacrafts. I'd like a newer boat 32-34 feet, but since I really don't want to finance $80,000 I'm forced to look smaller. I could wait a year or so and prob buy a used PSC 34 but I've been waiting five years already. I'm at the point where I'd rather go cheaper and go now. Use that left over money for the kitty.

I know how boats can be. I just hate to get caught in thousands of refit costs, but I guess that can just as easily happen in a late 80's early 90's oat as well as a 79. We'll see.

I think this would be a good first "Big Boat". One good thing about the age is that it's prob depreciated all it ever will. With the exception of any huge structural issues or blisters, I could prob sell for about what I paid in a few years.

[Moonfish]

Thank you, JeffH. I can see how the "myth" developed. Fatigue and flex questions make sense back then, in terms of unknowns about fiberglass over time.