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Experience required to bareboat?

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bareboat
9K views 57 replies 23 participants last post by  PCP 
#1 ·
My wife and I are trying to book our first bareboat charter in the BVI next year. We are both ASA Basic Keelboat (101), Coatal Cruising (103), and Bareboat (104) certified. I went on to earn my ASA Navigation (105) certification as well. We have done 4 crewed charters, 3 in the BVI and 1 in the Florida keys.

I also added on my sailing resume that I am currently enrolled in a school pursuing my 50 ton Master's, and have owned power boats for 10+ years.

I fully understand that I am no old salt, but I thought I had sufficient experience to charter. I am attempting to charter a 40 foot monohull and the bareboat company has told me that after my resume review I will be required to hire a captain for the first 2 days. Is this common?
 
#3 ·
No.

Our sail club chartered in the BVI and one couple was able to (although they didn't) bareboat with only lake sailing experience.

Maybe things are changing but usually a credit card is what they require. Sounds like they want to throw their captain some work.
 
#6 ·
On the surface it appears you have more certifications than a lot of charterers. Add in the crewed time you’ve spent in the BVI’s a mandatory 2 day skipper assignment sounds extreme. Most charter company briefers can read your competency in 5 minutes by observing how you move around the boat and comments and questions during the briefing. If they are not comfortable a demonstration of your abilities might be requested. You might want to check around.
 
#8 ·
knotnow:1229146 said:
On the surface it appears you have more certifications than a lot of charterers. Add in the crewed time you've spent in the BVI's a mandatory 2 day skipper assignment sounds extreme. Most charter company briefers can read your competency in 5 minutes by observing how you move around the boat and comments and questions during the briefing. If they are not comfortable a demonstration of your abilities might be requested. You might want to check around.
That's what I thought... I can understand if they did a checkout and I messed something up - but I haven't even spoken to the company. They made this requirement based on my sailing resume alone. It just doesn't add up. Who is to say this guy won't stay on the boat. I really don't mind having a skipper for a day as this is my first bareboat, but something just doesn't sound/feel right here. I'm really considering canceling and going with Sunsail instead.
 
#9 ·
Zanshin:1229250 said:
The ASA Bareboat should be more than sufficient, and usually with what a charter company considers a "borderline" charterer they will send out a skipper for the first part of a day, but certainly never 2 days.
Ok - so I'm not crazy then. At least not totally. Their quote was "The first day and next morning". I'm taking that as 2 days.
 
#10 ·
TMM is serious about their qualifications and they are used to being lied to (well, "inflated resumes" where someone once saw a boat close-up and thus claims 100,000 sea miles). I have heard of skippers going out with the boat and if all looks OK they'll ask to be put ashore by dinghy somewhere. Finding space for a skipper aboard a 40-footer with a full complement of guests is going to be hard in any case.
 
#11 ·
Zanshin:1229338 said:
TMM is serious about their qualifications and they are used to being lied to (well, "inflated resumes" where someone once saw a boat close-up and thus claims 100,000 sea miles). I have heard of skippers going out with the boat and if all looks OK they'll ask to be put ashore by dinghy somewhere. Finding space for a skipper aboard a 40-footer with a full complement of guests is going to be hard in any case.
This makes total sense, it just alarms me that they make this requirement from resume alone. This is a 3 cabin 2 head boat which is total overkill for just me and my wife, but it was cheaper than smaller/older options with other companies, has a shallower draft, and TMM offers some other benefits that we liked.

I don't know what to do. Either I go with a 36 at Sunsail (more money but probably a better fit), or stick with TMM and risk a skipper that decides to stay aboard.
 
#13 ·
I've chartered with Sunsail in the BVI and the qualifications were minimal. I had ASA through 104 (as did my wife), several other charters elsewhere, plus boat ownership. I would think your ASA classes, plus prior/current ownership of a sailboat would be sufficient. Try one of the larger companies...Sunsail or Moorings. Not sure what the size of your current boat is, but if smaller, perhaps the charter company has reservations about the size of the boat (i.e. 40'). Either way, I've heard of captains being required for a couple of hours to ensure you know how to tack, etc., but two days does seem long...

And I'm sure that all who have charered in the BVI can certainly attest to seeing their fair share of "questionable" captains with a charter boat...so it is quite possible that some may be more restrictive than others...
 
#14 ·
My boat ownership is mostly powerboats. My sailboat is only a 15 foot daysailer so maybe this is a problen that I don't own a larger boat. As I said, surely I am a new sailor there is no question there. But I had thought I was going about the proper course. I have done 4 crewed charters and all the certs. Just figured that would count for something.
 
#15 · (Edited)
Having not read your resume I would say it's not necessarily uncommon to have a skipper required. I work for a charter company and do not approve resumes, I do see a fair number of them. Some charter companies are more wary than others when it comes to protecting the assets that the owners have been so gracious to entrust them with. I go out with guests for three reasons:
1) The charter guest requested a skipper. The time frame for the skipper is determined well ahead of time anywhere from one day to the entire period of the charter.
2) The owner of the company required the charterer to take a skipper typically because of resume concerns. Again this is determined well ahead of time. This is usually one or two days depending on how well the guest is handling the boat and systems. I've been scheduled to go out for 2-3 days before and gotten off early because the guests are doing so well there is not a real need to keep me on the boat longer.
3) I've done a briefing on a boat and it's clear that either the charter guest has greatly embellished their resume, they haven't sailed in a very long time and skills they might have had once have greatly diminished, or for whatever reason the charterer just can't demonstrate VERY basic skills during the sailcheck. This is the most awkward and my least favorite part of the job and thankfully only happens a couple of times a year probably because the company is so stringent on resumes. There is no way to know if a skipper for a day or two or more is needed. It is all dependent on the charter. I sure don't want to mess up somebody's vacation plans! In the same sense if somebody can't figure out how to get the sails up (or out) and get through a tack or two, why would it be responsible to turn them loose on something worth a few hundred thousand dollars when there is a very good chance they could hurt themselves, some one else or the boat?

I don't know what the magic formula is to "pass" with TMM or anybody else. Reading your post, the things that would concern me are that you don't describe any bareboat experience at all. You don't describe owning a similar sized sailboat to 40'. From a charter company perspective I would assume that crewed charters are looked at the same as if you said you had been on a cruise ship. The other thing is that for a first bareboat charter for a couple, you don't mention having other crew along, starting on a 40' could be seen as a negative. Charter companies are in the business of sending people out on boats. Boats on docks do NOT make money.

My suggestions are, if you know you have all the necessary skills to bareboat a 40' boat, accept the skipper for 2 days and learn from him. You will be out what, $300-$400? What percentage of your total trip expense is that? You've taken the time and spent the money to get ASA certifications, why not continue your education with another experienced sailor? Any skipper that is worth a darn will recognize your abilities and leave you alone as soon as is practical. TMM is a reputable outfit, and technically our competition, and I would be utterly amazed to learn they were not using good skippers that would try and stretch a trip out for no reason. Or, see if a smaller boat is available that avoids the skipper requirement. Or, wrangle up some friends with sailing experience to go along with you. Or, ignore cost and go someplace that looks at your credit card limit as the measure of the skills needed to go. Some of the largest companies come to mind. ;)

Whatever you decide to do, have fun, relax and be safe.
 
#16 ·
You might want to contact BVI Yacht Charters. My wife and I were in the same situation and they were fine with us chartering without a captain. We both recently completed ASA 101, 103, & 104 and just own a Capri 14.2 for local lake sailing and that was enough. We did our first charter with them (just the wife and I) in late October of this year and were very happy with them. Many of their boats are a bit older but we had no issues with the Beneteau 31 we chartered. I can't wait to go back in 2014. Have a great time!
 
#17 ·
My experience was this: I had been crew on four charters and took ASA 101, 103, 104, 105, and 106. The company initially required a captain for an afternoon. Just the afternoon, not a whole day and a morning. But it turned out that the charter master personally knew my 103-104 instructor (I included my instructors' names and email on the resume), so after she reassured him that I could dock a boat with causing too much damage I was cleared to charter without any additional oversight.

A day and a morning seems extreme.
 
#20 ·
I would definately check with other companies...even if they require a captain also, if may be for a much shorter period of time. Worst case scenario, you are required to have one...from that point on you will have bareboat experience which will only make things easier. One of the bigger companies - such as Sunsail/Moorings - have bases everywhere which may make things easier when chartering in different locations...they would already have your history with them.
 
#21 ·
See if you can make it for one day.

Coming from a 15 footer to chartering a larger sailboat. What's it $200 a day for the captain? Try and hire him for one day. Personally, although I feel I could manage, and you probably can as well - having someone with local sailing experience along for at least one day sounds okay.
 
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#22 ·
Sal Paradise:1229642 said:
See if you can make it for one day.

Coming from a 15 footer to chartering a larger sailboat. What's it $200 a day for the captain? Try and hire him for one day. Personally, although I feel I could manage, and you probably can as well - having someone with local sailing experience along for at least one day sounds okay.
I have no problem at all with having/paying the skipper for a day, even 2. As someone noted here and I agree, surely I will learn something from him. It's just the manner in which it was required that surprised me.

Even though we were bareboat certified this year, we chose to do a crewed charter (in the bvi) one more time to get more experience before taking on a bareboat. I just figured my resume was up to par. What people have said here makes sense. I guess being told this solely from my resume shook my confidence.
 
#23 ·
I get that you are certified and that you are a bit put off.... I'm just saying try and negotiate the sticking point.


Have a great time. I'm envious. And I see your point. If I had to guess its the 15 foot boat that probably throws them.
 
#24 ·
I suspect the charterer is having heartburn over two things. The first is that this is your first bareboat charter and the second is that you are requesting a 40 foot sailboat, which is considered large. I think this could have been alleviated if your first bareboat charter had repeated the itinerary of your ASA 103 and 104 class (i.e. using the same charterer out of which you took the classes). This would have given both you and the new charterer confidence that you're okay on your own and with that size boat. Now, you have to pick among the available options, most of which still look good. Don't be discouraged. Go, be safe, and have fun!
 
#25 ·
Ded reckoner:1230809 said:
I suspect the charterer is having heartburn over two things. The first is that this is your first bareboat charter and the second is that you are requesting a 40 foot sailboat, which is considered large. I think this could have been alleviated if your first bareboat charter had repeated the itinerary of your ASA 103 and 104 class (i.e. using the same charterer out of which you took the classes). This would have given both you and the new charterer confidence that you're okay on your own and with that size boat. Now, you have to pick among the available options, most of which still look good. Don't be discouraged. Go, be safe, and have fun!
I suspect you are right. Only problem is that we didn't take our 103 and 104 with a charter company. We did those certifications on a Morgan Out Island 41 with a private ASA school in the Florida keys. I agree on the size too. While all of my big-boat experience has been on 40+, I would rather start on my own with a 36 but TMM doesn't have anything that small. There were several reasons why we chose TMM.
 
#26 ·
I suspect the charterer is having heartburn over two things. The first is that this is your first bareboat charter and the second is that you are requesting a 40 foot sailboat, which is considered large. I think this could have been alleviated if your first bareboat charter had repeated the itinerary of your ASA 103 and 104 class (i.e. using the same charterer out of which you took the classes). This would have given both you and the new charterer confidence that you're okay on your own and with that size boat. Now, you have to pick among the available options, most of which still look good. Don't be discouraged. Go, be safe, and have fun!
I was thinking the same thing. I hold all the ASA's as well, yet, i own a 40 foot boat. If you came to me with your resume and asked for a week on my 40 footer i would ask for a serious check ride. I think that if you had asked for a 30 footer they probably wouldn't blink. Going from 30 to 40 boat is a jump.
Given that you had crewed several times i would take this into account. Some letters of recommendation from the Captains of the crewed boats might help as well. IE Docking, mooring and sail skills.
 
#37 · (Edited)
Ownership of a similar boat that one wishes to charter and experience on it trump all the certificates that one can possibly earn. Let me share my last experience with a certified ASA instructor from about 3 weeks ago. NO, I am not knocking ASA in any way but rather what happens when lack of practical "big" boat experience meets paper certifications.

I was hired to do a one day familiarity trip by the charterer on a 44' Jeanneau. The charterer is a recently certified ASA instructor who sails regularly and teaches at an inland lake on 20' keelboats. Being a cautious guy with his family on board, he requested a skipper for the day to get used to handling a boat much larger than he was used to. He had zero ego and was an absolute sponge absorbing info about new to him systems like the generator and A/C systems. I asked if he would like to do the safety briefing before departing the dock to which he eagerly agreed. I listened and added info as needed but overall he was very thorough covering MOB, fire extinguishers, life jackets etc. He handled the boat pretty well once we had left the dock. During lunch I asked if there were any specific things he would like to cover that I hadn't already. He asked for a surprise MOB at some point to see how his crew would handle it. Most of his crew had sailed with him, one gentleman had never sailed before... The instructor's daughter was at the helm doing an excellent job sailing upwind in choppy conditions. When everyone was focused on a turtle ahead on the starboard side, I tossed a PFD out the port aft and let it get out about 50yds before yelling man overboard!!! I immediately said that I lost sight of them but they are in an orange life jacket (my subtle signal for others to spot them and maintain a visual, at this point I lay hands on the horseshoe life ring so it is not tossed) and started a stopwatch. At this point the non-sailor/boater immediately pointed and said that he sees the MOB. This guy was a machine, he never stopped pointing throughout the "ordeal". Next we did nothing...30 seconds still doing 8kts away and we did...nothing...1 minute into in and no actions taken. I finally said that I really didn't want to loose the life jacket and directly asked the charterer what his intentions were before I took over the helm and got the PFD myself! Granted now we are 200-300 yards away making 7-8kts, the course still hasn't been changed, no words other than mine have been spoken! The charterer finally snapped out of it and had his daughter change course which soon had us in irons and then more or less hove to. We are now 2:30 into this and haven't really even begun to proceed towards the MOB. Eventually I suggested the best helmsperson take the helm. The charterer took the helm and began instructing the crew to ease some sheets off winches and eventually got the boat moving generally toward the MOB. 4:00 into it we have done some sort of a convoluted figure 8 and are coming into the PFD on a near beam reach making nearly 9kts. After repeatedly hinting that we are carrying a LOT of speed a crewmember is sent to the rail to grab the PFD. The wake from the bow wave literally shot the PFD away from the hull as we flew by.:eek: Strike 1 at about 5:00. A real figure 8 is immediately attempted but made too tight to get within 20' of the MOB. Strike 2 at about 6:30. Charterer learns from his mistakes and makes a perfect approach nearly stalling the boat on the MOB while furling sails. MOB is recovered stopwatch indicates just under 9 minutes. The person with the least amount of experience on the boat has never once stopped pointing at the MOB and finally lets his arm down. Five hours earlier he didn't know what a MOB was or what to do about it. Clearly he was paying attention during the thorough safety briefing at the dock. Get that guy a beer!

During the charterer's safety briefing at the dock regarding MOB procedures he seemed to be repeating a section of a manual verbatim. I interjected numerous other options to consider rather than, or in addition to, sailing the standard figure 8 such as:
Hit the MOB button on the chartplotter
Start the engine and quickly furl sails, motor back to retrieve MOB
Hop in the dinghy and get the MOB

Reviewing the drill, all agreed it was an unacceptable amount of time to get close to retrieving a MOB. The charterer said his mind went blank. He'd never had a non-planned MOB drill. He was used to the smaller, slower, more nimble keel boats on the lake. He wasn't used to the wind speed or sea state we were in. He never considered putting the most skilled person at the helm before it was suggested to him. He'd never been on a boat with a "real plotter" and forgot to even consider hitting the MOB button. He was used to sailing boats without motors or that had very small kicker motors and never thought to use the 75hp that was available to him.

I know this gentleman is NOT typical of the very skilled ASA instructors I have been around. Despite all of his credentials, he clearly did not have the experience necessary to handle an unplanned fake emergency on a 44' boat with moderately experienced crew (they had only been on small lake boats too). Since this event is still fresh in my mind I thought this a good chance to pass it on. These are the sorts of things that keep me awake at night whenever I OK a charter guest who struggles a little on a sailcheck.
 
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