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post #1 of 23 Old 02-20-2012 Thread Starter
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Ready to pay your fair share?

The Peoples Republic of Maryland needs MORE! Our dear comrades at the DNR are proposing the following increases in boat registration, keep in mind they also desire to remove the exemption for motorless sailboats.

For you to be a useful member of the collective this is what the DNR is proposing to take effect by 2016 for a 2 year registration on ALL vessels...

* Small non motorized boats - voluntary (Yeah, haven't we heard that before) $12
* Less than 16', $50
* 16'-32', $125
* 32'-45', $250
* 45'-65', $500
* >65' $700

This will help the suffering marinas and boating industry...What idiots!

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post #2 of 23 Old 02-20-2012
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What do you expect from the DNR (Do-Nothing-Right) or (Dam-Near-Russia) did you really think they care about the economy! You just have to look at the enforcement tools/toys they have; Too know better......Dale (He that dies with the most toys Wins!)

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post #3 of 23 Old 02-20-2012
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The Peoples Republic of Maryland needs MORE! Our dear comrades at the DNR are proposing the following increases in boat registration, keep in mind they also desire to remove the exemption for motorless sailboats.

Just a question here. No one is for increased fees. Certainly not me. What do you think the DNR should charge? Should they not require registration at all? Do you think we even need a DNR? What purpose do they serve? If you agree we need one who should pay for it , the general public or should it be a user fee? If you think we dont need a DNR what will the outcomeof that argument be. Please be specific.

Anyone can criticise and whine....what is YOUR solution? Be specific so the rest of us can analyze YOUR solutuions.


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This will help the suffering marinas and boating industry...What idiots!
Do you beleive the government should help suffering marinas and the boating industry?

Dave


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post #4 of 23 Old 02-21-2012
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This topic was explored as recently as three days ago here: Another Maryland Fee Increase

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post #5 of 23 Old 02-21-2012 Thread Starter
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SVAuspicious, thanks for the link. I didnít realize that discussion was already in play. I just saw the article in the MD Gazette and thought Iíd relay the information where people may be interested. I see my opinion on the state of MD raiding more of my earned money is well shared.

Chef2sail, Wow! That reply seems a little hostile. You state you are against increased fees which is my opinion (welcome aboard) and then seem to go on the attack. I assure you my outrage is not whining but yes it is indeed a criticism. Iím a little flattered you think I can solve the DNRís money problems in my spare time on a boating web page and in a few paragraphs as well. Thatís a pretty tall order, if I could do that I could solve the money problems of many people and businesses and be a very wealthy man. I might even be able to have one of those huge catamarans like the ones I see at the end of the piers at the MYC.

I never claimed to have all the answers but I do know if this goes though it will hurt the marine industry on many levels. I donít believe the Government should give a handout to the marinas but making it tougher for people to own boats will negatively impact them.

Iím not exactly a regular here, Iím extremely busy and only post in spits and spurts but I remember posting with you in the past and seem to remember it a pleasurable experience. I think we talked about the MYC. Anyway, you seem pretty angry.

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post #6 of 23 Old 02-21-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Just a question here. No one is for increased fees. Certainly not me. What do you think the DNR should charge? Should they not require registration at all? Do you think we even need a DNR? What purpose do they serve? If you agree we need one who should pay for it , the general public or should it be a user fee? If you think we dont need a DNR what will the outcomeof that argument be. Please be specific.

Anyone can criticise and whine....what is YOUR solution? Be specific so the rest of us can analyze YOUR solutuions.




Do you beleive the government should help suffering marinas and the boating industry?

Dave
Specifically, my solution would be to use funds for what the taxes were ostensibly created for in the first place. I recently paid MD several thousand dollars tax when I moved my boat into the State to cover my fair share of maintaining the waterways. However, that money was raided to fund the empty coffers of the general fund just like the money from these new fees will be.

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post #7 of 23 Old 02-21-2012
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Anyway, you seem pretty angry.
I didn't get anger or hostility from his post at all. You might be projecting.
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post #8 of 23 Old 02-21-2012 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by -OvO- View Post
I didn't get anger or hostility from his post at all. You might be projecting.

Let me help you OvO...

When someone says your whining for voicing an opinion...Thats hostility, light hostility but hostility just the same. When someone wants you to completely rectify in detail years of mismanagement, government overspending and mispending in a few paragraphs (see "be specific so the rest of us can analyze YOUR solutions") thats hostile. Capital letters in a note usually mean a raised voice. Now lets sum it up shall we? A raised voice mixed with hostility equals to most people anger. To others who may be more submissive maybe not so much.

To be totally honest Chef2sail DID make me think a little deeper into the concept of what I should pay to register my boats. I thought for a while and came up with the following. I pay tens of thousands of dollars to Maryland every year in income taxes, registration fees (boats, cars, motorcyles, trailers, etc.), licensing fees, user fees, sales taxes, property taxes etc. These taxes pay all kinds of government entitlement programs that I'll never use or benefit from but I pay. Taking that into account I personally believe, in my individual case, with all the economic stimulus I provide...ALL MY BOATS SHOULD BE REGISTERED FREE!!!...VEHICLES TOO!
Just think, before I thought this out I thought my CURRENT registration fees were fair now I think I'm feeling like THEY"RE TOO HIGH...I'm feeling...ANGRY!!! AAAGGGHHH!!!!!!

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Last edited by swampcreek; 02-21-2012 at 10:33 PM. Reason: added content
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post #9 of 23 Old 02-21-2012
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When someone says your whining for voicing an opinion...Thats hostility, light hostility but hostility just the same. - Swampcreek
Swamp, not meant to be hostile, if it came accross that way I did not mean it to offend you. I have read many of your posts and feel they are spot on and valid. I apoligize if the way it came accross on the internet was hostile as it was not my intention

I frankly get very tired of reading posts of people just complaining about taxes, DNR, police, Coast Gaurd and using anything our government does to make it open season on what they do. These same posters RARELY have a solution they just want to rail on about the government. Thats counterproductive to me.

I appreciate those who get actively involved like Auspicious, Wingnwing, Bubble, and DFerron who put their time and effort into their beleifs. I dont always agree, but hey this is America. ( I actuallly agree with them 95%). They are willing to get from behind their computers and work for what they beleive....that to me is not whining or complaining incessantly without solutions.

I train many mid management managers in my job. Very often all of them can identify or spot the problems. But can they propose solutions. Do they have the energy implement or carry out the solutions. Thats what makes a REAL difference.

Mid- I understand the excise tax is not palatable ( I am assuning thats what you were referring to)...I paid it also. I never though it was supposed to go for the waterways and always assumed it went to the general fund.

I assume that the boat registration fees go to administer the program. Right or wrong those costs have gone up just like every other good and commodity that involve people salary, rent, and electricity. I do not think doing away with the registaration process would be a productive thing to do and so far no one has proposed that or answered my original questions that way.

I view the registration fees as a user fee to administer the license program of boats, and think the general public should not have to pay for my use of my boat. I disagree that my income taxes, school taxes, sales tax should allow me to register for free ANYTHING. This goes contrary to the point Midlifesailor was making that they raid the cofferes to the general fund. I disagree with that practice.

Registration fees are user taxes and should be. People who dont own boats should pay for those who do. People who dont own cars shouldnt pay for those who do. The bigger the boat or car...the bigger the fee. Thats how it goes.

Dave


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post #10 of 23 Old 02-22-2012
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Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
...People who dont own boats should pay for those who do. People who dont own cars shouldnt pay for those who do. The bigger the boat or car...the bigger the fee. Thats how it goes.....
Therein lies the debate, Chef. (did you mean shouldn't in the first sentence?) Should users pay, or should everyone pay?

Before we explore this beyond civility, let's agree that our government has never actually analyzed or adopted a cohesive approach to this debate. Each successive administration, regardless of party, simply looks to how to fund their interests. We are where we are because the weakest electorate loses, not because it is wise.

While that statement makes this an academic question, boat registration fees are theoretically a user fee that could be focused on the cost of providing a service. If that make sense, then I suppose those without children may not have to pay school taxes, or those with six children should pay more than those with two. How about bridge tolls? Those are the perfect user fee, but have notoriously exceeded the actual cost of the building and maintaining the bridge. What we have is a mess that defies any single principal.

In the end, all of these issues can be argued to provide a benefit to many and not just the user. Educated kids are necessary for our future. Bridges are necessary to move food to our stores. Boaters are necessary to keep marinas hiring everyone from college kids to mechanics, manufacturers making boats and indeed attracting people to live in waterfront communities.

The problem is that we have become addicted to all the taxes and fees, not a well thought out focused approach.

So why does a boat need to be registered at all? What meaningful public good does that serve? Titling serves a purpose of protecting personal property rights (the most fundamental right that has driven the US to be the wealthiest country in the world. Your stuff cant be taken away which caused lots of people to immigrate and invest here) But registration is just a user fee.

A mix of general contribution and user fees is probably the right answer. However, the user fee should be very specifically tied to an incremental service. You can't take more than that service cost and it's efficiency should be a matter for the users themselves to scrutinize. If we as the consumers of the service are exclusively paying for it, we should exclusively be ale to vote on who runs it, how much they are paid, etc. When an issue is for the greater good and you don't want to turn its destiny over to the boating community exclusively, then everyone should pay. When the issue is so specific that you are willing to turn its destiny exclusively over to the boating community, then user fees should pay for it.

I will leave this last piint unaddressed for now. If two boats use exactly the same service without generating more relative cost than the other, nav aids for example, why would the longer boat pay more? Just cuz they must have the money is the most common answer. And we're back to the beginning.

There's my stand. Fire away.
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