Not one nice Marina from Trenton to Essington, Pa - Page 3 - SailNet Community
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post #21 of 67 Old 02-24-2012 Thread Starter
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Well, with regards to Philadelphia, I think if you build it--boaters will come. Winters is a nice yard in and of itself. The channel in is too low 1 hour either side of low tide. If that area were to be dredged properly, I agree that would be the best around.

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I'm no expert in this, and not trying to make excuses, but intuitively I think the density of wealth in NYC is a lot higher than Philly, so you get the megayachts there to pump up the local marine economy.

So what's wrong with Winter's/Riverside (adjacent marinas under same ownership)? Between the two of them they have a full service yard, chandlery, restaurant (with others a short walk away), 6' depth on some or most docks.

I'm not sure the issue with the Philly area is lack of pride. It's lack of demand and dollars. Pride doesn't pay the bills. The supply and demand curves have to cross, and I'm not sure they would for a high-end marina in the Philly area.

There isn't a device on this world that can measure the indifference I have for that statement.
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post #22 of 67 Old 02-24-2012 Thread Starter
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DO you see a pattern there? I know some people who worked on all those projects. I was told the only reason marinas were put in those designs was to appease the people who wanted some type of water front access. After the permits came though, the plans to build each of thise marinas were scrapped (i.e., the developers never intended to build the marinas)

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There have been attempts at more up-market marinas in Philadelphia but none have got very far.

The Waterfront Square development had a marina in its original plan, and the marina is still in the condo documents, but was never built.

The Sugar House Casino proposal included a marina, but lots of scaling back including no marina.

The Foxwoods Casino that did not get as far as ground breaking for many reasons also included a marina.

Marinas at high property value locations cannot stand alone financially and need to be part of a value added feature to a larger development. The Penn-Praxis master plan for the central waterfront includes more marina locations, but without investors in major waterfront developments they are unlikely to happen.

There isn't a device on this world that can measure the indifference I have for that statement.
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post #23 of 67 Old 02-24-2012 Thread Starter
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ROFLMAO, I LOVE IT!!!! LOL

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Yam, if Philly had something as nice as, or nicer than, anything in NYC,* it would throw off the whole Bos-Wash corridor equilibrium, altering the Masonic balance the Founding Fathers carefully designed, causing stock markets to plummet and possibly the entire east Coast to crack off and float toward Bermuda.

Now, you wouldn't want that, would you?








* The only exception to the Bos-Wash Equilibrium Theory is the cheesesteak. Each city is allowed to have one superior indigenous food stuff. Washington still has not found one.

There isn't a device on this world that can measure the indifference I have for that statement.
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post #24 of 67 Old 02-24-2012
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Originally Posted by Yamsailor View Post
DO you see a pattern there? I know some people who worked on all those projects. I was told the only reason marinas were put in those designs was to appease the people who wanted some type of water front access. After the permits came though, the plans to build each of thise marinas were scrapped (i.e., the developers never intended to build the marinas)
If a high-end marina had the potential to be profitable, developers would not scrap it from the plan.

Maybe your hypothesis is right that it was only put in the plan temporarily to appease certain special interests. But it's an indisputable fact that developers want to make money, and if there was a true potential for a high-end marina to make money, a developer would build it.

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Winters is a nice yard in and of itself. The channel in is too low 1 hour either side of low tide. If that area were to be dredged properly, I agree that would be the best around.
The chart shows 7-8 feet at MLW, though not sure NOAA re-surveyed Dredge Harbor in 2010 (when they did the rest of the river). Have you been in there to confirm that it's too shallow?

From what I've heard about West End Boat Club's dredging contract, I suspect that dredging an area like Dredge Harbor would cost over a million dollars and take a few years of legal haggling over permits. Any marina operator has to consider whether the Delaware River has enough potential as a recreational boating area to pay back such an investment.

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Well, with regards to Philadelphia, I think if you build it--boaters will come...
That kind of thinking got us into the bubble that burst in 2008. In the new normal, potential investors are right to be skeptical. Would you invest your own money in this?

Ulladh - Didn't you tell me that the Chester waterfront plan had a high-end marina down near the soccer (er, football, in your case) stadium?


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post #25 of 67 Old 02-24-2012
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I'm no expert in this, and not trying to make excuses, but intuitively I think the density of wealth in NYC is a lot higher than Philly, so you get the megayachts there to pump up the local marine economy.

So what's wrong with Winter's/Riverside (adjacent marinas under same ownership)? Between the two of them they have a full service yard, chandlery, restaurant (with others a short walk away), 6' depth on some or most docks.

I'm not sure the issue with the Philly area is lack of pride. It's lack of demand and dollars. Pride doesn't pay the bills. The supply and demand curves have to cross, and I'm not sure they would for a high-end marina in the Philly area. Rhythm Doctor
Not sure I agree with anything said here.

I do not beleive it is an issue of wealth. Philly has its Main Line and Chestnut Hill so there are is a "wealthy base" of people.

To compare NY and Philly is like apples and oranges. One is close to the ocean....has a major sound to sail in to the north- the LI Sound doted with many water communities coves ( BTW the current and tidal change is at least the Delawares Rivers and more in some spots) and rivals the Chesapeake for desirability for a boater. It also has NY bay and the North Jersey area to sail in.

Its hard to compare that to a River flowing by Philly which is barely 1 mile across. The port of NY which includes bayonnne, staten island etc is huge compared to the wwaterfront in Philly which is proabbly smaller than Baltimore which I am close to.

For a sailboater ( This is in no means a denigration of where you keep your boat, but for someone who like weekends gunkholing or traveling from Port to port, the Delaware River is not interesting for us. There are no real places to anchor compared to the Chesapeake or the LI Sound.

Lets face it, sailing on an estuary is different than a large body of water like the Chesapeake, Sound or the Ocean. It cannot nor should not be compared against each other and certainly has nothing to do with wealth ( Philly has the Main Line and Chestnut Hill) or the city it is close to.

Philly is many things, but will never be confused with sail boating or a recreational boat capitol.

Just an FYI I am a Phidelphia native, root for all the Philly teams still and my family lives in the area still. We either kept our boats on the Chesapeake ( unless it was a water ski one) or in Ocean City, NJ where I also lived for 18 years

Dave
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post #26 of 67 Old 02-24-2012
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Dave - I agree with everything you said. I think I mentioned elsewhere that the Delaware River has limited attractiveness for recreational boating compared to other places, and no amount of wealth or fancy amenities will overcome that for people who are willing to travel to get to those other places.
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post #27 of 67 Old 02-24-2012
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All through the season even early and late, DRYL members with power boats start visiting other clubs. To not be part of this is a major loss of fun on the river. Example, last summer Bristol YC had a Crab Fest. OH MY GAWD it was amazing! Then Bordentown YC has sandbar parties, If you not a DRYL member at least befriend someone that is! LOL

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and oh, the DRYL is having it's annual dinner at my YC this Saturday! (but I won't be there)

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post #28 of 67 Old 02-24-2012
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The Chester marina was to be part of the Soccer Stadium, restaurants, supermarket and condominium development, The "Union" stadium was built then 2008 happened, and the money dried up.

The basin beside the stadium needs dredging for the marina, all the bulkheads are in good condition, but without lots of investment in infrastructure it is not going to happen in a city that cannot met its school payroll, and had its controller shot at a gas station last week.

The stadium is a success, revenue is up and another stadium deck is proposed, so sometimes if you build it they do come.

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Last edited by Ulladh; 02-24-2012 at 05:34 PM.
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post #29 of 67 Old 02-25-2012 Thread Starter
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Yes,

I was at Winters/Dredge Harbor two weeks ago by boat.

It is LOW.

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Originally Posted by RhythmDoctor View Post
If a high-end marina had the potential to be profitable, developers would not scrap it from the plan.

Maybe your hypothesis is right that it was only put in the plan temporarily to appease certain special interests. But it's an indisputable fact that developers want to make money, and if there was a true potential for a high-end marina to make money, a developer would build it.


The chart shows 7-8 feet at MLW, though not sure NOAA re-surveyed Dredge Harbor in 2010 (when they did the rest of the river). Have you been in there to confirm that it's too shallow?

From what I've heard about West End Boat Club's dredging contract, I suspect that dredging an area like Dredge Harbor would cost over a million dollars and take a few years of legal haggling over permits. Any marina operator has to consider whether the Delaware River has enough potential as a recreational boating area to pay back such an investment.


That kind of thinking got us into the bubble that burst in 2008. In the new normal, potential investors are right to be skeptical. Would you invest your own money in this?

Ulladh - Didn't you tell me that the Chester waterfront plan had a high-end marina down near the soccer (er, football, in your case) stadium?

There isn't a device on this world that can measure the indifference I have for that statement.
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post #30 of 67 Old 02-25-2012 Thread Starter
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I think you make some very good points. I do think one high end marina would work on the Delaware. It could cater to both sail and power boats.


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Not sure I agree with anything said here.

I do not beleive it is an issue of wealth. Philly has its Main Line and Chestnut Hill so there are is a "wealthy base" of people.

To compare NY and Philly is like apples and oranges. One is close to the ocean....has a major sound to sail in to the north- the LI Sound doted with many water communities coves ( BTW the current and tidal change is at least the Delawares Rivers and more in some spots) and rivals the Chesapeake for desirability for a boater. It also has NY bay and the North Jersey area to sail in.

Its hard to compare that to a River flowing by Philly which is barely 1 mile across. The port of NY which includes bayonnne, staten island etc is huge compared to the wwaterfront in Philly which is proabbly smaller than Baltimore which I am close to.

For a sailboater ( This is in no means a denigration of where you keep your boat, but for someone who like weekends gunkholing or traveling from Port to port, the Delaware River is not interesting for us. There are no real places to anchor compared to the Chesapeake or the LI Sound.

Lets face it, sailing on an estuary is different than a large body of water like the Chesapeake, Sound or the Ocean. It cannot nor should not be compared against each other and certainly has nothing to do with wealth ( Philly has the Main Line and Chestnut Hill) or the city it is close to.

Philly is many things, but will never be confused with sail boating or a recreational boat capitol.

Just an FYI I am a Phidelphia native, root for all the Philly teams still and my family lives in the area still. We either kept our boats on the Chesapeake ( unless it was a water ski one) or in Ocean City, NJ where I also lived for 18 years

Dave

There isn't a device on this world that can measure the indifference I have for that statement.

Last edited by Yamsailor; 02-25-2012 at 12:38 AM.
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