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  #41  
Old 11-07-2013
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Re: The Ocean is broken? really?

the more power we give our govt the more it is going to hurt us, not help us. folks need to do stuff without freeking govt intervention. get real, folks. doesnt matter what country you are in, big govt is not good..nor does intrusive big govt actually DO anything....
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  #42  
Old 11-07-2013
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Re: The Ocean is broken? really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwing View Post
Yep. Even though I lean far into libertarian territory, I believe that the federal government should be very powerful in protecting our environment. Clearly, the "free market" has failed in this area and really has no way of succeeding. For instance, copper mining/refining is extremely toxic. We all use lots of copper, but how many of us buy copper directly? So how can the consumer have any market power to wield on copper producers? Only through a collective body.
Can you show me where mining of all types is not already highly regulated in the United States?

Oil Drilling?

Production and Refining?

You buy copper directly every single day as it is in the pipes of homes built, the wires in the walls, etc. Ask your plumber or electrician how important copper is to them and you.
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  #43  
Old 11-07-2013
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Re: The Ocean is broken? really?

Seriously folks. We used to discuss the problem openly when it was possible to be honest and not worry about being politically correct. The problem is overpopulation and there is no answer to it other than what you believe - either God or Mother Nature will sort it out eventually and the earth will heal herself after. Until that point it is up to us as individuals to do our part to extend that as long as possible and not sit back and expect someone else will solve it for us with regulations or political promises.

Her is a good one for you people who think the government will solve it. We had a group decide to go out and just pick up the trash along a stretch of beach. After picking it up, the city would not take the garbage and we had to pay to take it to a dump. They also threatened a ticket for organizing without a permit. That is reality. How do you encourage people to do the right thing when you punish them for it?
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  #44  
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Re: The Ocean is broken? really?

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Originally Posted by tdoster View Post
Can you show me where mining of all types is not already highly regulated in the United States?
Can you show me where I implied that it is not regulated in the USA? What I am saying is that regulation of pollution is a good thing, and since pollution does not respect state or national boundaries, the regulation must occur at the federal level.

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You buy copper directly every single day as it is in the pipes of homes built, the wires in the walls, etc. Ask your plumber or electrician how important copper is to them and you.
That is buying copper indirectly, which is exactly the point I'm making. Most people don't have the time to figure out where components of things they buy are sourced, and then research how the components are produced. There is simply no way that the free market can control pollution from industries such as copper production. Even if we had perfectly clean production in the USA, direct buyers of copper can source from overseas where regulations may be non-existant or poorly enforced. Since pollution affects the entire world, we should have tariffs that even the playing field for producers that comply to our regulations.
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  #45  
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Re: The Ocean is broken? really?

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
the more power we give our govt the more it is going to hurt us, not help us. folks need to do stuff without freeking govt intervention. get real, folks. doesnt matter what country you are in, big govt is not good..nor does intrusive big govt actually DO anything....
If government has but one function, it should be to defend its citizens. A government does not need to be "big" in order to provide its citizens an effective defense against polluters.
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  #46  
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Re: The Ocean is broken? really?

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Originally Posted by tdoster View Post
You can never regulate a solution to a problem.
I dare you to sail your boat past Somalia, the world's most perfect non-governmental-regulation utopia.

Do you know how the pirates there got started? The lack of regulation enforcement in the Somalian territorial waters, due to a small, weak (ha!) government, induced huge fishing boats from other countries to come and decimate the local food source. Somalian fisherman started taking matters into their own hands. After that, they used their newly-developed skills and expanded their operation.

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Originally Posted by tdoster View Post
If you have ever travelled to a third-world country, you saw piles of trash
Another good example of what happens in a regulation-free environment.


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Originally Posted by tdoster View Post
and poverty. These people have enough problem finding a meal and cleaning up is not top of their list
Good point. That is why wealthy countries like the USA and Canada should be leading the way to caring for the planet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tdoster View Post
and regulation enforcement only applies to people or companies who can afford to pay the fine, WHICH does not go to cleaning up, but another tax revenue for the government...If you wanted to solve the problems why not have the EPA actually use the fees and fines it collects to actually clean up the waterways.
I may be missing your point. Are you suggesting that the government should be in the business of cleaning up private companies messes and use fines to fund this activity? Wouldn't it be better if people and companies didn't mess things up to begin with?


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Originally Posted by tdoster View Post
The only thing that cleans up the land is a big storm, which washes it into the ocean.
I've seen that many times - awful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdoster View Post
The only near term solution to the problem is each of us doing our part to clean up after everyone else.
I just don't know what to do about cleaning up after that large magnesium chloride plant in Utah - one of the largest point sources of air pollution in the world. But I do live downwind from it, so I get to breathe that crap. So do you.




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Why not instead of huge fees to drill in the Gulf of Mexico, they just require that they clean up 3 old wells and platforms before drilling another one?
Because that oil belongs to the people of the USA, including future people. Since the USA is a net exporter of petroleum, oil companies are using up a national resource in return for excessive short-term profits for their shareholders and executives. (There is plenty of profit in the domestic market.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdoster View Post
It is human nature to strive for power and as long as human nature exists, there will be no collective governmental effort to solve this problem, so it is up to you and me, my friend, to do our own part.
Yes, we need to do our own parts as individuals, but environmental improvements since the inception of the EPA suggest that your judgement of collective efforts may be erroneous.
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  #47  
Old 11-07-2013
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Re: The Ocean is broken? really?

Had to throw this up here, frontiersman please don't destroy my drone LOL

actually in today's news

personal underwater drones for sale - cnn

A new submersible robot -- sort of an underwater drone -- could open up undersea exploration The OpenROV can be controlled remotely with a laptop It's equipped with a video camera to stream back images The device was designed in Silicon Valley and sells for $849
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  #48  
Old 11-07-2013
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Re: The Ocean is broken? really?

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Originally Posted by Sal Paradise View Post
Had to throw this up here, frontiersman please don't destroy my drone LOL

actually in today's news

personal underwater drones for sale - cnn

A new submersible robot -- sort of an underwater drone -- could open up undersea exploration The OpenROV can be controlled remotely with a laptop It's equipped with a video camera to stream back images The device was designed in Silicon Valley and sells for $849
That thing is awesome !

If I mount a brush on it can it clean the bottom of a boat?
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Re: The Ocean is broken? really?

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Originally Posted by tdw View Post
(Mod hat on for the moment .... sad though it may be, if this thread spends too much time in "tree hugging propaganda" mode it will end up in PRWG.)
Having read the whole thread, I observed that several posters either did not take this threat seriously or don't care if you follow through.
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  #50  
Old 11-07-2013
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Re: The Ocean is broken? really?

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Originally Posted by unimacs View Post
That thing is awesome !

If I mount a brush on it can it clean the bottom of a boat?

I thought the same thing!

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