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  #11  
Old 01-03-2014
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Re: Help choosing the project and the designer/naval architect.

4 years to build a boat to sail the hi seas... with all due respect... Not going to happen. UNLESS you pay a yard to build it. OR have really really close friends that are jacks of all trades.

You will want to consider Home - Origamiboats: The Art of Frameless Steel Boatbuilding


Also, consider strongly the wisdom in buying a proven blue water boat to refit/restore/refurb. It just makes a whole lot of sense. Steel boats can be picked up for a pocket of change and a bucket of rust olem Hell, they may even pay you take them!

Just to build a boat, to build a boat usually that.winds up unfinished.. Is all time that you could be using to learn how to sail. there are thousands of boats out there "project, just needs.... and will be ready with....."
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  #12  
Old 01-03-2014
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Re: Help choosing the project and the designer/naval architect.

Hi, this is exactly what I want to do: select the designer/project and hire professionals to build it for me, but I will be involved in the process. I know how to sail, and the time not used building the boat will be used to increase my sailing skills (the ones that really matter!), as you pointed out. Best.
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  #13  
Old 01-03-2014
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Re: Help choosing the project and the designer/naval architect.

You have a good project by a Brazilian NA, Barros, the Kiribati. The boat is not properly beautiful but it seems effective to me. I had a look at the boat file and the stability curve and everything looks well, even if I would prefer a faster boat, what probably is not your case since you are thinking in steel.

a.b.b. - amateur boat building - Kiribati 36



Kiribati is for sure inside your budget. I would prefer this one, a 43ft by Dick Zaal. I don't think it will be inside the 500 000 usd (at least made in Holland), but you can make an inquire:

Interesting Sailboats

Boths boats are in aluminium but any of those designers can provide you with a similar design in steel, even if I think it is a mistake.
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  #14  
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Re: Help choosing the project and the designer/naval architect.

I know Roberto Barros (Cabinho)'s projects. He is a great NA very well known in Brazil, perhaps the most successful around here. He would be my in my shortlist, but first I need to have a list with other NA’s….LOL. Around 10 years ago I sailed one of his projects, Delta 26. A great sailboat, easy to handle.
Thanks for pointing me to Dick Zaal. His projects look really great!
In respect to budge, what should I expect? Perhaps an interesting reduction would come from having the parts cut in a country such as Germany and have the boat mounted in Brazil. If this could be possible, my concern would be the quality of welds and how to create a good quality control. Badly made welds ca increase the weight and make the hull more fragile.
It seems to me that you are not a fan of steel hulls. Will I trouble you if I ask you why?
Best,
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Old 01-03-2014
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Re: Help choosing the project and the designer/naval architect.

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Originally Posted by grafare View Post
.....
It seems to me that you are not a fan of steel hulls. Will I trouble you if I ask you why?
Best,
Grafare, Welcome to Sailnet!

The 'steel or not' debate is a well documented one with obvious and passionate views on either side.

I'm sure Paulo will come back, but he may be asleep by now... In my view a steel boat is really only specified if one intends to do polar sailing or extreme venues like that (or you plan to play 'demolition boat' with every coral reef you come across!)

Modern techniques and generally far better designs can be rendered in typically fiberglass, or possibly even better, cold molded wood/epoxy. Go back through Paulo (PCP's) "Interesting Sailboats" thread for some ideas on what's happening mostly in Europe of late.

The 'economy' of steel is often overrated as what ever hull material you choose will end up being a low 10-15% of the overall finished cost of the boat fully finished and equipped. In that respect the 'cost' of the build (of the hull) is not a major consideration overall.

There's no denying the inherent strength of steel, but if it really was the best choice one must ask why, as Stumble pointed out, there are SOOO few steel boat builders left. A well engineered hull of any other material can be nearly or perhaps equally strong, (and certainly more than 'strong enough' for typical cruising and safe boat handling) and ultimately will be lighter, faster, and probably better shaped.

Had I the ability to specify a new custom build, my first choice would be a cold molded hull, with perhaps a molded f/g deck, though the tooling costs there might be excessive... and, most probably, from the drawing board of Bob Perry...
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  #16  
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Re: Help choosing the project and the designer/naval architect.

Dick Zall is known (among other things) by his aluminium and steel boats. He is Dutch and Holland has a great tradition of building aluminium and steel boats. I am sure he could have all pieces cut for you.

There are basically two types of projects from a NA, a one off, where you say what you want to an NA and he just does a project to you (expensive) and a project already made that the NA sells to several clients. That is the case with the one I posted. I had once changed some emails with Zall. He speaks English and is a nice guy. If you are interested send him an email and ask about prices.

You have also on this Forum Bob Perry (NA) that is a nice guy and has also experience in designing Aluminium and steel boats. You can also talk with him. you can find him on the thread about steel boats.

Another option are the stock plans from Van De Stadt:

http://www.stadtdesign.com/designs/s...ail/tonga_56/1
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Last edited by PCP; 01-03-2014 at 09:32 PM.
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  #17  
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Re: Help choosing the project and the designer/naval architect.

Faster: I agree with you on your comment about the pseudo economy of a steel hull. My main concerns are related to safety, maintenance and repair. I am not sure about the other material, but with almost 100% certainty one can find a worker/welder who knows how to handle steel in any part of the world.
So far, I found no data about the speed reduction due to weight increasing on steel boats when compared to aluminum and other materials, considering the same project. Do you have any information regarding this?
Best,
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Re: Help choosing the project and the designer/naval architect.

Paulo: Thanks again.
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Re: Help choosing the project and the designer/naval architect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grafare View Post
Faster: I agree with you on your comment about the pseudo economy of a steel hull. My main concerns are related to safety, maintenance and repair. I am not sure about the other material, but with almost 100% certainty one can find a worker/welder who knows how to handle steel in any part of the world.
So far, I found no data about the speed reduction due to weight increasing on steel boats when compared to aluminum and other materials, considering the same project. Do you have any information regarding this?
Best,
In all sailboats weight matters. The smaller the boat the biggest difference between s steel hull and an aluminium hull. On bigger sailboats (over 60ft) the difference exist but will be smaller. I believe that you will find also everywhere people able to repair an aluminium hull if needed.

One thing you should be concerned about steel is resale value that is very low.

Berckemeyer (NA) that has also some very interesting aluminium boats in his portfolio says it better than me:

ALUMINIUM YACHTS:

Aluminium nowadays is the most popular building material with custom built long distance cruisers. You can leave it unpainted. Claims about electrolysis problems with Aluminium hulls are mostly exagerated, however, this aspect should be observed and proper protection installed.

The following comparison will show the pros and cons of Aluminium versus

steel:

Weight: Aluminium is lighter than steel for the same strength. Hence the available displacement can be utilized for carrying water, equipment and provisions, rather than a heavy steel structure.

More stable and faster: Due to their lighter weight, Aluminium boats have a lower centre of gravity and are therefore more stable and faster.

Appearance: In order to keep the weight of steel hulls down, plating is thinner than with Aluminium yachts. Therefore, over the years, steel hulls will often acquire a buckled appearance, with reduced resale value.

Labour saving: Light weight means labour saving during the construction of the hull. Also, Aluminium can be cut abt. 3x as fast as steel and it can be cut with normal woodworking equipment. Aluminium welds approc. 2x as fast as steel, even considering the thicker plating to be welded in the case of Aluminium construction.

Safety: Aluminium deforms or stretches beyond its elastic limit more than steel before rupturing. This is of particular importance when hitting floating objects ( it is estimated that approximately 10 00 containers are going overboard annually ).

Safety: Aluminium is non-sparking and non-magnetic.
Price of material: Aluminium is more expensive than steel, however, it does not require a very elaborate paint system for corrosion protection and the resale value of Aluminium yachts is the highest of all boatbuilding materials.

COMBINATION ALUMINIUM / WOOD:

Aluminium hulls with wooden decks (inside: natural wooden deckbeams supporting a white painted plywood deck) combine the warmth of wood with the safety of Aluminium hulls. Furthermore, a lot of time is saved with this building method, since labouriously covering up deckbeams and stringers at the inside of an Aluminium deck can take the same time as building the deck in plywood accoring to the WEST (Wood Epoxy Saturation Technique) system.

STEEL YACHTS:
Steel is the traditional material for metal boatbuilding. However, in spite of all claims that steel can be 100% corrosion protected, it still needs care and when you see a rusty spot on an exposed surface, you will have uneasy feelings about the hidden parts which will rust away undetected. Moreover, steel adds approx. 20% to the displacement as compared to Aluminium hulls, which could be better utilized by way of supplies. The resale value of steel boats is low

O. Berckemeye


Berckemeyer Yacht Design

Regards

Paulo
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  #20  
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Re: Help choosing the project and the designer/naval architect.

Paulo,
I read the thread “Steel or not” as mentioned by Faster. Putting the BS aside, it provides interesting information about the pros and cons of steel boats. I must confess that somehow I don´t few very comfortable with aluminum due to damage, electrolysis, repair and maintenance. Perhaps I need to study more about it in order to change my mind. On the other hand, according to a friend of mine, there some new special steel alloys that are lighter and more resistant than ordinary steel used in maritime applications that could reduce some of the cons listed on your last post.
It seems that a 60 ft boat is too big to be single handled, so the difference will be significant on the size I am considering. By the way, the arguments listed on your last post make total sense to me.
Best,
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