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  #21  
Old 01-04-2014
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Re: Help choosing the project and the designer/naval architect.

You asked abut the speed reduction by going to steel vs aluminium. Frankly that is very difficult to answer, and would be different from boat to boat but let's look at some quick numbers.

A typical 40' fiberglass sailboat is going to have a Diesel engine in the 40hp range and a weight of around 15,000lbs. So we have roughly 375lbs/hr. If you assume a steel hull will be 20% heavier for the same size! that means a weight of 18,000, at the same 40hp, that's 450lbs/hp.

Figure this relatively modest increase of 3,000lbs results in a 20% reduction in available power. Since a steel hull also has a higher center of gravity because of the additional weight up high, you have to reduce the amount of sail that the boat can carry, resulting in a decrease in the available power under sail. So steel gets you coming and going, it makes the boat heavier reducing performance, and it reduces available sail area, further reducing performance.


And frankly the idea that you can't find someone who can weld aluminium... I spend a lot of time in 3rd world countries, and I have never been anywhere where I could haul a boat out of the water that I couldn't also find someone to weld aluminium. The likelihood of trying to re weld a steel hull while it's laid over on a beach is just a myth.
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  #22  
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Re: Help choosing the project and the designer/naval architect.

Thanks for the explanation. I believe I understood it.

In respect to welding, let´s put this way, in some parts of the 3rd world it is much harder to find a metal worker who knows how to work on aluminium for many reasons, including the cost of necessary equipment.
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  #23  
Old 01-04-2014
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Re: Help choosing the project and the designer/naval architect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grafare View Post
Faster: I agree with you on your comment about the pseudo economy of a steel hull. My main concerns are related to safety, maintenance and repair. I am not sure about the other material, but with almost 100% certainty one can find a worker/welder who knows how to handle steel in any part of the world.
Same with fiberglass.

If you go steel, just make sure you go with a designer with integrity. It's always good to be able to trust what you're being told.

I would point you to Bob Perry in heartbeat...regardless of hull material. There are many of his satisfied customers here and on SA that will enthusiastically vouch for him. The dude's good.
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  #24  
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Re: Help choosing the project and the designer/naval architect.

Smackdaddy: I have been reading threads in various forums, and, so far, received many information and very good advice from various persons. One of the very few qualities I have is I listen to people, especially when they know more and have more experience than I do, and follow their advices!
Bob Perry´s accomplishments speak for himself. My main concern is, hire a NA (especially thousands of miles away) seem to be very expensive if one needs to design a new project from zero and build it (forgive me, but I don’t know the actual cost, but my wife is an architect)
It seems to me that a way to reduce the total investment is buying an existing stock project and hire a NA (and I would hire a NA that is not the same who designed the project) to become your consultant or permanent team member of your project.
However, in the ultimate scheme of things, the money invested to hire a good NA is a small percentage of the overall project cost and can make the difference between success and total failure. So, instead of a cost, I see it as an investment!
One of the tasks I have for the coming days is to find out and breakdown in percentages, like an ABC analysis, to start getting a better sense of the investment in each phase of the project. For instance: project, NA, hull, electronics, rig, interior and so on. After, I will breakdown into material, equipment, labour and etc. Then, once I have understood them, I will adapt it to the selected project.
Best,
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Re: Help choosing the project and the designer/naval architect.

Still in what regards building a boat in steel or aluminium I believe the only disadvantage would be the less technological build in steel. Not that in aluminium is a lot more dificult but it is more specialized and as you pointed out, even if today electrolysis problems with aluminium are completely sorted out in professional boa building, that can be a problem with a more amateurish construction if they don't know what they are doing.

Since you have to build the boat in Brazil I would stop by now and I would go looking for aluminium professional boat building in Brazil (I am sure that there is shipyards), see if there is any at a convenient distance from where you live and depending on their quality and skill I would then go on regarding the material and type of project:There are several levels of difficulty in what regards stock projects: some are very easy, designed to be built by amateurs, others are better boats but only suited to be built by professionals.

I think that regarding your budget the idea of having a stock plan and then a NA or a Naval engineer to direct the building team makes a lot of sense.

Regarding the NA and the project I would regard as very convenient one that could take care for you of all cutting (computer assisted plasma cutting) of metal parts in a way that you would only have to assemble the boat in Brazil.

For instance this Swedish shipyard designs the boats, cut the parts and send everything to Poland where they assemble the boat. Just give it as example because they have a nice picture i can post but any NA with experience in 3D design with the right tools and used to work in metal can do this:



"Every single element in the construction of the VK series of aluminum performance sailing yachts is designed down to the last detail. The construction elements are then grouped according to their thickness and type of aluminum alloy. Each group is nested on plate forms that will be used for cutting by CNC laser and/or plasma cutters.

From the above procedure a construction kit is developed that is ready to go to the production. For the assembly of the construction kit, the sequence and the type of welding a special construction manual is made by VK Yacht to be used at the yard.

The metal used in the construction of the VK series aluminum performance sailing yachts are Lloyd's 3.2 approved aluminum alloys:

AL 5083-H32 for the internals (AlMg4.5Mn)
AL 5083-H0 for the plating (AlMg4.5Mn)
AL 6082-T6 for bars (AlMgSi1)

The production yard of the VK series of aluminum performance sailing yachts is in Gdansk, Poland. The yard had a long practicing experience in aluminum marine constructions already before starting collaboration with VK Yacht.

In the yard, prior to the assembly of the construction kit, the elements that need to be curved are formed with specialized roller machines. The final assembly and welding is performed by approved and well experienced technicians.

The total construction is supervised and approved by Classification Authority."


VK Yacht AB - Construction

Off course even if already cut in this case it is a project to be executed by skilled professionals and that's why I said that first I would look at what you have available as work force and then i would chose the material and the type of process.

Probably the Dutch have the better designers and specialized shipyards in what regards Aluminium Yachts, closed followed by the French, but in what regards simpler projects designed for the amateur boat building (easier to build) and overall less expensive boats, than the France is the place to look.

I can give you some suggestions, but first look at what you have available in what regards boat building.
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Last edited by PCP; 01-04-2014 at 09:20 AM.
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  #26  
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Re: Help choosing the project and the designer/naval architect.

Paulo,
Thanks again.
I can stretch my budget once I am in control of all variables. But, for now, I must have a ballpark figure to direct my search and analysis. One thing I can assure to you: it is going to be my home, but I don´t like to waste money. Everything must have a proper and solid reason and justification.
Since I am living in São Paulo, finding qualified people working with AL won´t be too problematic, but, again, in other places this could represent a challenge. I will check around and beat around the bushes to find good AL workers and plasma cutting firms. How can I enforce a good quality control?
I still need to come up with a shortlist of designers and projects. Without that, it will be very hard to come up with a budget and strategy to manage this project. So far, I came across: Van de Stadt, Berckemeyr, Olivier van Meer, Marc Lombard, Ted Brewer, Dick Zaal, Tanton, Dudley Dix, Ted Brewer and Roberto Barros (Cabinho).
Best,
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Re: Help choosing the project and the designer/naval architect.

There are so many NA with standard plans for voyage boats, so many different types of boats that you have first to focus on a type (size) and material and for that you have to establish a budget and see what is the work quality and qualification workers you have available. To have workers specialized in aluminium is not the same as having workers specialized in aluminium yacht building and even in S. Paulo I don't think you would find that much choice. If the qualification is not high the best is a good plan for amateur boat building.

Some French ones (there are much more):

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/...20-%20pers.pdf

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Last edited by PCP; 01-04-2014 at 06:16 PM.
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  #28  
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Re: Help choosing the project and the designer/naval architect.

Paulo,
You are right about finding AL workers in São Paulo, but before I follow another path (i.e. forget about AL or decide to buy either a new or a used boat) it is important to make sure there is no coming back and the decision was conscious and well made.
I am not concerned with budget *yet*, but I will. So, let me change the focus a little, before discussing about NA and steel versus Al, with one question: what is the bigger size a sailboat can be single handled cruising around the world on open waters in safety and efficiently?
Thanks for the new referrals.
Best,
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Re: Help choosing the project and the designer/naval architect.

It depends on the boat and rigging. He his an old man, not a top sailor and is sailing a 63ft sailing boat around the world:

Kiwi Spirit | Dr. Stanley Paris ? Kiwi Spirit, a custom designed 63-foot yacht

STANLEY PARIS: His Geriatric Circumnavigation | Sailfeed

Light modern cruising boats and modern rigging had allowed for much lighter boats, boats that need less sail to go faster than his ancestors. Less sail on a bigger boat means less efforts, better sea motion and more speed.

The problem with bigger boats are draft and more dificult to maneuver in tight places (marinas) but modern lifting Keels, swing keels and centerboarders solved that problem while bow thrusters and rotating saildrives took care of the other.

So I would say that unless you are rich it is more a money problem (all that is expensive) and bigger boats are more expensive too. Answering to your question without money considerations I would chose a modern boat between 45 and 55ft, (a light one to sail well with a small amount of sail) and one with a lifting or swinging keel. That size if the right boat and rig is chose can be handle by a single person and offers increase safety and more space to live aboard as well as more load ability without a too much cost in performance.
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Re: Help choosing the project and the designer/naval architect.

No, I am not rich (un)fortunately, unless you count my friends as my wealth! So, let´s established the following size limit: 35 to 50. Now, I need to browse around and check what can be accomplished within this limit. I believe it is important to have a wider interval because some NAs might be better in solving spacing problems than others.
The Kiwi Spirit is a good example of Farr design! Stanley is doing what I want to do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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