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  #231  
Old 02-26-2014
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Re: $3000/mo cruising budget

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeventyr60 View Post
Would it be possible to anchor in the Hudson river, dinghy to shore and find a pastrami on Rye? Maybe catch a subway to Yankee field and watch an afternoon game?
Yes, but it's Yankee Stadium! Humph, left coasters......

Quote:
If so, then it might just be paradise.... As long as the Mariners win!
This, however, is not possible.

p.s. moved some time ago, but born and raised in NY metro. Delivered papers as a kid and couldn't stay up to watch the games. I read the box scores every day before I left on my route.
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  #232  
Old 02-26-2014
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Re: $3000/mo cruising budget

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
Yes, but it's Yankee Stadium! Humph, left coasters......



This, however, is not possible.

p.s. moved some time ago, but born and raised in NY metro. Delivered papers as a kid and couldn't stay up to watch the games. I read the box scores every day before I left on my route.
I grew up in NY or Canarsie to be exact when the sand dunes were there and remember riding our bikes along the Belt Parkway... my dad had a medical practice there before we moved to Morristown, NJ. We used to sail our dinghies in Jamaica Bay... it was great and my dad used to take us up the Hudson with his fishing friends so I know the area as a child/young man would at the time... didn't change much in the way of life I imagine compared to what it is now, I grew up with many Jewish, Italian, and Spanish families that lived there so the culture/food was as expected growing up in the big city but small town Canarsie. Prospect Park was our park of choice when the entire family did their holiday hangouts.

I'll not say a word regarding the Yankees and the Mariners and just say the better team won last year!
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  #233  
Old 02-26-2014
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Re: $3000/mo cruising budget

^you guys sound like futbol fans down here

btw real madrid plays today the absolute best futbol team in the world! ajajajajajajaajajaja
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  #234  
Old 02-26-2014
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Re: $3000/mo cruising budget

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Originally Posted by christian.hess View Post
^you guys sound like futbol fans down here

btw real madrid plays today the absolute best futbol team in the world! ajajajajajajaajajaja
Really I didn't even know that the Seattle sounders had a game against Madrid today
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  #235  
Old 02-26-2014
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Re: $3000/mo cruising budget

I wonder what all this has to do with the topic?
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  #236  
Old 02-26-2014
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$3000/mo cruising budget

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerryrlitton View Post
Maybe we need to define cruising again.

I have read this thread and the 500USD/month thread quite thoroughly. On this one the rule seems to be find an expensive spot (whether it is a mooring or a slip) stay a month and pay for expensive bar tabs, restaurant food, perhaps pay for the dinghy dock, pump out, pay through the nose for gas for your 2kw gensets, for their plasma tv's Then whine about it. You may as well buy an Airstream trailer, hook up to your F250 and hang out at a KOA

The other guys, may spend 2-3 days somewhere where they restock on local food, meet local people, see things close to the boat and just relax. They cruise cruise perhaps 30-50 miles and do it again. WTH is a gen set anyway? Almost no diesel used because they actually sail. May not be as fast or convenient but if the wind is not blowing they hang out a bit longer, doing those sailing chores such as whipping line, sewing sails, lugging empty water containers to the dinghy so you can refill the main tanks on the boat.

At the end of the month the 3000usd/month guys will have run gallons of fuel through the lines, may or may not have taken the sail covers off and have seen the latest movies on blue ray.

The 500usd/month guys have perhaps torn a stitch on the sails, went over the side to clean the prop, made a lot of friends on shore, and tried some new foods and beer. Not to mention better cruising/sailing stories. (its all about the stories)

Just a matter of priorities eh?

Jerry

Uh, no.

The difference is that this thread has at least some basis in reality. Food costs money. The days of no insurance are coming to a close. You are required by law not to pumpout within 7 miles of the keys, and the typical boat simply does not have a large enough holding tank for really long waits between. Things break on a boat and can be very expensive to repair, even if you do it yourself. The problem is that people don't want to hear that because it does not fit their perception of what reality 'should be' versus what it really is.

I have been sitting on a ball since October, only had a one day marina trip last Saturday. I haul my own water. I make power from solar, but even with 780 watts i run the generator periodically to supplement. I have not rented a movie since before Christmas because the closest Redbox is too far to ride that next morning. I do not own a car and ride my bicycle everywhere. Yet, I will tell you this post is more in line with reality than 500. I would rather people prepare for 3000/month and try to make 500 work, than prepare for 500/month and scramble trying to realize it is closer to 3000.

Brian
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  #237  
Old 02-26-2014
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Re: $3000/mo cruising budget

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerryrlitton View Post
Maybe we need to define cruising again.

I have read this thread and the 500USD/month thread quite thoroughly. On this one the rule seems to be find an expensive spot (whether it is a mooring or a slip) stay a month and pay for expensive bar tabs, restaurant food, perhaps pay for the dinghy dock, pump out, pay through the nose for gas for your 2kw gensets, for their plasma tv's Then whine about it.
Jerry
I think you are well off the mark.

First, I don't understand the competition from the $500 per month people. Yes, you can live on $500 per month on a sailboat. I did it on $800 per month for several months. Does this make you a hero? A saint? Special in some way? Reading the responses to my posts on the $500 per month thread I would have to conclude that spending more than $500 per month is evil. You seem to agree based on the above quote. That is why i stopped posting on that thread.

Second, I think for most people the question is: "what is a realistic planning number for full time cruising?" I find this thread much more enlightening then the $500 per month thread. When I started out I had no real idea of how much I was going to spend. My insurance cost $800 per year. I could handle that. As soon as I wanted to leave the US it jumped to $2,000 per year. And I had to pay for a survey on top of that.

Third, in the short term what one includes in one's "cruising budget" has a lot of variation. One can divide between "getting ready for cruising" and "the cost of cruising." So bottom paint, decent sails, life jackets, life raft, EPIRB, solar panels, wind generators, water makers, etc. can go into "getting ready for cruising." This accounting decision makes the "cruising budget" seem smaller. Over a five year period these things break and need to be repaired or replaced. For most people in my experience selecting the cruising lifestyle is a post career 5 to 10 year evolution. At that point for a variety of reasons they move on to land. So I think a 5 year or 10 year budget is much more realistic.

To my fourth and final point. Over the course of 5 years of world cruising I have found that $800 per month did not make it. Some people can live their entire lives on less. I had a crew member who build a home and lived off the grid for 10 years. He grew his own food, made his own electricity, etc. I guess his biggest expense was property taxes. There is an old saying "amputation with a dull spoon is possible, it just takes a long time and is very messy." I think (and therefore I am ) that the average cruising couple would not want to try and sustain themselves on $500 per month. Could they? Yes. But for those coming here for an assessment of the average costs for most people to sustain a lifestyle that does not include ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerryrlitton View Post
expensive bar tabs, restaurant food, perhaps pay for the dinghy dock, pump out, pay through the nose for gas for your 2kw gensets, for their plasma tv's ...
Jerry
... are more likely to find the answer here than on the $500 per month thread.

In the real world things cost money - country clearances, repairs, food, fuel, water in many places. When I raised the issue that clearing into the Bahamas was a $400 evolution I was told on the $500 thread "well, stay 10 months and it is only $40 per month." Why go at all? You can save $400.

A final note. At some point one should take into account the loss of value to a boat. Presuming that at some point one is going to stop cruising and sell the boat what is the residual value? A boat with blown out sails, non-functional equipment, dead bottom paint etc. is going to be worth a lot less, just as a car with bald tires. This too is a "cost of cruising."

Fair winds and following seas.
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Last edited by svzephyr44; 02-26-2014 at 03:20 PM. Reason: spelling
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  #238  
Old 02-26-2014
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Re: $3000/mo cruising budget

Quote:
Originally Posted by xort View Post
sorry about the tone, didnt come out the way I thought it would.

I still dont think a family of 4 would need a watermaker for coastal cruising. What is your tankage? We saw a half dozen kid boats anchored in Newport harbor this summer. If water access is what is keeping you tied to the dock, you need to rethink that. As I mentioned, there are plenty of town docks you can pull the boat up to and fill water tanks. In Newport they have a water float in the middle of the harbor. Free water.

Saw kid boats in the Bahamas where water is harder to come by but they were making do.



I jumped on this because you seemed to be inferring a boat with 4 people couldnt coastal cruise without suffering a water shortage. Again, between fuel stops where water is available, free town docks where water is available and an occasional stop at a marina where you can wash the boat and fill up...there is quite a bit of water accessable. If you're burning thru 50 gallons a day then you need to stay tied to the dock.



I think it is necesssry for people to differentiate between livaboard at the dock vs cruising. Big difference in lifestyles and costs

Hey E, it's all good. We are friends. I also appreciate your comments and I think it is good for the thread because you are also cruising. I have been upfront that I am not telling anyone how to do it, but how we do it and how we have kept doing for now on 14 years (for the most part).

Lets see, water usage: 2.4 seemed to be the average per person/day on the cruisers i polled (though ours hits 2.2 without washing much if any an no boat washing). We can push that down to about 1.5 but that is pure water conservation and not enjoyable for long periods. 2.4 (wasnt that your usage too?) is not fun but doable. Something close to five, especially including clothes washing, probably comes in quite comfortable.

I have plumbed and wired for a water maker, but honestly, i have yet to find a real hard need for it. The places we enjoy staying, Boot Key Harbor for instance, i would not make water at... Nor would I at most other popular harbors. And honestly, water has never really been one of our most restricting issues, but an issue.

When you said,"water usage keeping you tied to the dock..." I was not sure if you meant me personally or a person in general. Certainly isnt keeping me from leaving a marina since (except for Saturday) i have not been at a dock in four months!!! Curiously, how long has it been for you? I do agree that if water is keeping a person at the dock, there are ways around that depending on the boat.

But that is not the only issue. Other issues are are black water. How much does your boat hold? The average person will make 1-3 gallons of black water waste/day. Electroscans are becoming increasingly prohibited and many areas, including the entire florida keys, are no discharge zones to seven miles out (not 3). How long before you have to get pumped out? You can get pumped out at some gas docks, but they generally charge you for it too (our last one was $25). When you begin adding that into your budget, many of whom will need 2/week, that bites hard into the 500/month business.

Now what about trash? Can you throw your trash into the local dumpsters or gas fuel docks? Well, maybe. We have been to places from Pensacola to the Keys where they let you... And others where they dont.

Come summer, the rules begin to change. I have little interest in going up the coast just to escape the heat. We have talked ourselves into going up the coast for years, and talk ourselves out of it every year. I do think we will do it one year, but as I love the west coast of Fl and the keys in the summer (more than the winter), it may be a while. Come summer, we have to have air conditioning. While i dont mind the heat during the day (dont enjoy it either), it is the heat at night that is the killer. A day? Nah. A few days or week-2 in the tortugas or marq? No problem. But day in day out for months? No. I neither want to be miserable nor does my budget require it. There are those who do it without ac, but they are tough brother! And they dont do it because they want, they do it because they have to. Some can do it long term, most get burned out (no pun intended). Before anyone says they dont need a marina or ac in the s fl summer, tell me how long you have done it on a boat! As i have said before, some days are frankly miserable.

So the water was only one thing which i was pointing out where i disagree with your 15 days/year marina bit. There other factors. For those who will sail to New England every year and back, maybe you can make the 15 days work. But you will also move out of this area in the most beautiful time and even going up the coast carries its own costs.
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  #239  
Old 02-26-2014
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Re: $3000/mo cruising budget

Quote:
Originally Posted by svzephyr44 View Post
I think you are well off the mark.

First, I don't understand the competition from the $500 per month people. Yes, you can live on $500 per month on a sailboat. I did it on $800 per month for several months. Does this make you a hero? A saint? Special in some way? Reading the responses to my posts on the $500 per month thread I would have to conclude that spending more than $500 per month is evil. You seem to agree based on the above quote. That is why i stopped posting on that thread.

Second, I think for most people the question is: "what is a realistic planning number for full time cruising?" I find this thread much more enlightening then the $500 per month thread. When I started out I had no real idea of how much I was going to spend. My insurance cost $800 per year. I could handle that. As soon as I wanted to leave the US it jumped to $2,000 per year. And I had to pay for a survey on top of that.

Third, in the short term what one includes in one's "cruising budget" has a lot of variation. One can divide between "getting ready for cruising" and "the cost of cruising." So bottom paint, decent sails, life jackets, life raft, EPIRB, solar panels, wind generators, water makers, etc. can go into "getting ready for cruising." This accounting decision makes the "cruising budget" seem smaller. Over a five year period these things break and need to be repaired or replaced. For most people in my experience selecting the cruising lifestyle is a post career 5 to 10 year evolution. At that point for a variety of reasons they move on to land. So I think a 5 year or 10 year budget is much more realistic.

To my fourth and final point. Over the course of 5 years of world cruising I have found that $800 per month did not make it. Some people can live their entire lives on less. I had a crew member who build a home and lived off the grid for 10 years. He grew his own food, made his own electricity, etc. I guess his biggest expense was property taxes. There is an old saying "amputation with a dull spoon is possible, it just takes a long time and is very messy." I think (and therefore I am ) that the average cruising couple would not want to try and sustain themselves on $500 per month. Could they? Yes. But for those coming here for an assessment of the average costs for most people to sustain a lifestyle that does not include ...



... are more likely to find the answer here than on the $500 per month thread.

In the real world things cost money - country clearances, repairs, food, fuel, water in many places. When I raised the issue that clearing into the Bahamas was a $400 evolution I was told on the $500 thread "well, stay 10 months and it is only $40 per month." Why go at all? You can save $400.

A final note. At some point one should take into account the loss of value to a boat. Presuming that at some point one is going to stop cruising and sell the boat what is the residual value? A boat with blown out sails, non-functional equipment, dead bottom paint etc. is going to be worth a lot less, just as a car with bald tires. This too is a "cost of cruising."

Fair winds and following seas.

One of the issues too I think is the longevity. Maybe i can see the disconnect now. When I talk about cruising, I factor it in over years. I have done it a long time and will continue to. For those that dont consider the outfittimg of the boat, nor repairs, but simply see 'can i cruise (survive) for a while on 500/mo' well, yeah. Maybe you can? But like I said, the engine in the Tayana blew last year. All said and done, 25,000. That is 50 months of their cruising... Or wait? We don't count that? Yeah right. Bottom job is, realistically with zincs, 1600-2000 done or maybe half that if you do it yourself. Or wait, we dont add that? Yeah right.

Like I said, at least this thread has some basis of reality especially when added in for long periods. Maybe a bit more than some, a bit less than others.

Oh, and I asked this before: how many of the wives have been chiming in on this thread??? Sometimes these posts (and many on the 500 thread) smack of a guys night out and a lot of bar talk.
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  #240  
Old 02-26-2014
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Re: $3000/mo cruising budget

Quote:
Originally Posted by xort View Post
...I still dont think a family of 4 would need a watermaker for coastal cruising...

I think it is necessary for people to differentiate between live aboard at the dock vs cruising. Big difference in lifestyles and costs
Let me take this backwards. I think that one reason this thread goes all over the place is that our assumptions of the definition of "cruising" is all over the map. Perhaps a better way to phrase the question would be:

If I want to:
  • Live aboard and occasionaly sail in the local area
  • Live aboard and travel the East or West Coast of the US
  • Live aboard and "snowbird" to the Caribbean
  • World cruise or circumnavigate

what is a reasonable budget?

I budget about $2500 per month which includes a substantial reserve for the unexpected. I have crossed the Atlantic twice and intend to cross the Pacific in the near future. I just spent $1500 (3 months budget on $500 per month) to have my life raft serviced. There are times when I spend no money but beat the hell out of the boat (like crossing from the Canary Islands to the Caribbean.) There are times when I spend a lot of money and don't do much sailing (like when I am repairing the boat after crossing the Atlantic.) There are expensive cruising grounds (Guadeloupe) and cheap cruising grounds (Montserrat.) Over the course of 4+ years $2500 on a 42 foot sailboat is what turns out to be my expense profile. That cost includes upgrades to the boat - some quite expensive (e.g. Monitor Wind Vane steering device) and a couple of unexpected repairs (like dragging in a freak thunderstorm and destroying my rudder and needing to repair my sails after another freak storm.)

I have a lot of equipment on my boat that a coastal cruiser can do without: Marine/Ham MF/HF radio, the Monitor, Solar Panels, watermaker, radar, dual chart plotters, XM Radio weather subscription, satellite telephone, etc.) They all cost money both to acquire and to keep in repair. I also have a lot of redundancy. Two autopilots - the vane and electric. Four VHF radios. Dual rather than one chart plotter. Would I want to solo across an ocean without them? No. That is why I have them.

Money is a limiting factor in world cruising. If one's dream includes circumnavigation ("those far away places with the strange sounding names") or even significant island hopping in the Caribbean and East coast of North/Central America rather than staying at one's favorite sheltered anchorage and day sailing it is going to cost a lot more. Just three costs: charts, cruising guides, and country clearances can add up to quite a dent in your monthly budget. The world is also a far less financially friendly place then it was a decade or two ago. Many countries are enforcing length of stay restrictions (Europe for non-Europeans and the US for non-US boats.) The places one goes (such as Turkey) when one has to leave have caught on and raised their prices. Not to mention the occasional "Government sweeps" that seem to pick up boats at random and impound them as happened in Mexico last month. See http://www.cruisingworld.com/news/th...o-hits-the-fan A big unexpected expense for 338 cruisers. The golden lining, if there is one, is that world cruisers are, if it is possible, even more supportive of each other than in the past. Sharing or passing down cruising guide, charts, etc. has always been the norm. It is more important now than ever.

Fair winds and following seas.
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Last edited by svzephyr44; 02-26-2014 at 04:15 PM. Reason: Added link to Mexico story
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