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Modern convenience and boat size

29K views 247 replies 34 participants last post by  outbound 
#1 ·
I am pretty sure I am not alone in that even though I am happy with my current boat, I always have an eye on what I want next. I think we all can pretty quickly put on paper a list of things that our next boat must have; lessons learned from either minor inconveniences all the way up to the major, like wanting standing headroom. I find myself doing this a lot, especially after watching some of the various cruising blogs out there. Man, some of those people are really living!
It would seem that over the years, things that people used to think were luxuries have now not only become affordable, but they have become compact and energy efficient as well. I mean, look at how far we have come with things like refrigeration. There are systems out there that are small enough and efficient enough that they can be installed on virtually any small boat and can be for the most part powered by solar energy. If you have a couple dollars, pretty much any boat with a battery can have cold beer. Imagine what some of the early pioneers of the cruising life would think of that. I mean, I was just looking at a combination washer and dryer that can run off a 2000 watt inverter and would actually fit on my 30' boat. Granted, that loss of space would be inconvenient. But if I wanted to have easily cleaned clothes, I could do it. And I could do it for the cost of a few dinners ashore. Unbelievable.

This brings me into what I wanted to talk about. For me, this is at this time purely hypothetical. But it is something I've been thinking about because it will become relevant with a decade or so. As we all know, sailboats are a compromise. I think we could make a case for the larger the sailboat, the less you compromise; except in the ability to easily handle the boat in less than ideal conditions. Now I know, electrical winches and the sort have made this less of an issue. But I think it is safe to say that simplicity at sea has it's merits. For something as important as sail control, I want the ability to manually do it. Anyone who has wrestled a 150 on the deck of a 30' boat can attest to how difficult that can be. Now imagine that 150 on a 50' boat!

So what size boat allows you to have most of your cake and yet still allows a single hander or cruising couple to easily handle their boat. Thankfully for now I happen to have a very spacious 30'er. I can and will have things like built in air conditioning at the dock. Things like a reliable water maker. I can fit them and more importantly, fit the systems required to support them. However, I can't fit a separate shower. I can't fit a below deck generator. I can't fit an air compressor to fill scuba tanks. I can't fit my 9'6 dinghy on the foredeck without getting in the way of things. This kind of stuff requires a bigger boat. Now granted, I could fit this stuff if I just bolted it down to the settee or in the V berth but I'm talked about properly securing this equipment in it's own place; and being able to service and conveniently use that equipment.

One of the blogs I was following had a very nicely outfitted boat with all those things, I think they even had a dishwasher that didn't breath. The boat had a hatch in the cockpit that lifted up and you crawled down into the engine space where all these systems were readily accessible. Very sweet setup. However, the boat was 53' long. To each his own but I do not want to handle a 53' boat all by myself. I don't even see the need for that much boat as a cruising couple. Four staterooms, three heads and six sea berths are unnecessary for two people. Even if you convert one of the staterooms to a shop, you still have too much extra space to collect stuff. Granted, this is my opinion based on what I would need.

So how do you compromise in this situation. I want my next boat to have a separate shower. I want to be able to fill my scuba tanks on board. Washing clothes and dishes would sure make self sufficiency much easier to handle. Now don't get me wrong, I fully understand the idea of the minimalist sailor and the fact that their time on the water is not spent fixing and maintaining all this extra equipment. One could argue though that their time instead is spent ferrying water cans ten miles or sitting on deck washing clothes in a bucket. While the cruiser with the complicated gear presses a button and then has a drink on deck while their clothes are being washed. I've done the minimalist thing and the older I get, the less I want to do that. Besides, a lot of this extra equipment has become incredibly reliable. Remember when watermakers were almost guaranteed to stop working within a few hours? Properly maintained and regularly used, that is almost a non issue anymore. Besides, if you can afford to have some of this stuff, why not? Even more so if you feel confident that you can fix most of it yourself.

As most would agree, a cruiser spends most of their time at anchor or tied to a dock. I am at a point in my life where I have the means to make that as comfortable as possible, within reason of course. So, while looking through the ads in my hypothetical boat shopping moment, it seems that in order to get even the first thing on my next boat list I have to jump up to 36'. 36' seems to be where the head transforms from the combicrapwashower room into a proper head and shower. And this even is kinda rare at 36'. So for the sake of this discussion, let's start at 36. Take your standard Catalina 36, a bigger version of what I already have. I get my separate shower but where do you put a generator? Forget the dive compressor. You might be able to install the dishwasher but the washer/dryer will definitely have to be part of the décor'-either in the aft stateroom or somewhere else where it would get in the way. And this is what I meant when I said "properly stored" earlier. To me that means securely installed so it does not move in a sea way, yet installed in a way that I can lift up a hatch and put my clothes into it, press a button and walk away. (with the generator running of course) My idea of a properly outfitted boat, when discussing these comfort and convenience items, is a boat that when you first walk into the cabin, you don't see any of this stuff. You may see the electrical panels that control it but that’s it. To get underway, you just turn it off and close the seacocks, or make sure the dishwasher is empty. On calm island hops, you may not even have to do that. Washing your clothes while motoring a few miles to the next anchorage- all the while topping off your batteries sounds like cruiser heaven to me. This is where my hypothetical search starts running into walls- these kind of conveniences seem to really only start showing up once you cross the 40' mark.

Or maybe I'm completely wrong. Maybe I could manage to neatly install all this stuff in a 36' boat. If you plan to cruise with only yourself or one other person, 36' gives you plenty of extra space to work with. And, at least within the Catalina line, there is always a ton of wasted space that can be utilized to fit this increasingly small convenience equipment. If you think about how much of the interior space you actually use, modern boats have excess space anyway. I mean, rainy day, if you're not under the dodger, you're either laying in a bunk or sitting at the table. Other than those days, you're in the cockpit, on deck or off the boat. Surely compromises can be made within 36' to accommodate this equipment. Look at a 30' camper, you'll find most of this equipment so why not on a boat?

Being retired at a fairly young age, I want my cruising experience to be as comfortable as possible. I want little luxuries that make my experience less like work and more like a permanent vacation in a tropical location. To me, that means self sufficiency in as many areas as possible. Parts, food and fuel should be the only time I HAVE to go somewhere. I mean, isn't that what it's all about anyway?

So, what are your thoughts and experiences regarding my hypothetical meandering? What do you have in your boat that makes life easier and more convenient? What did you give up in order to get it? What equipment have you found to be not worth the hassle? And most importantly to me, what size boat did you finally settle on to have these things? Humor me if you will, but a lot of people talk about how to cruise as a minimalist. What about the pocket cruisers who try to have some of the conveniences found on bigger yachts? Again, purely hypothetical at this time, but I just want to see where this goes and maybe get some good information posted by those doing it so as to help others when they are thinking about how big (or small) a boat they need. AR
 
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#2 ·
42 is the answer. Read the hitch hikers guide.

Had 22, 28, 36, 52 now 38. If the issue maybe money, but no matter where you lie on the budget spectrum we all get only so much time on this planet. If you go big and automated, you'll be fixing stuff in exotic locations. If you can afford to have someone do it, you'll still be sitting around waiting for them to get parts, and a competent person to do the work. If you do it yourself, you'll still be doing it. All this costs time.

If you go small and simple, you'll be taking showers in your head and drying everything off afterwards, and looking for laundries ashore, but you'll spend less time fixing stuff. This costs convenience, but don't underestimate the frustration when the conveniences you become accustomed to fail.

Take your house, keep spraying salt water on it sometimes forcibly with a fire hose, and shake it. Even the reliable stuff would break.

My 52 had 3 air conditioners, 2 fridges, separate freezer, 15 water pumps, 4 power winches, power in mast furling, bow thruster, etc., etc........ Nice and comfortable. Never had washing machines or dishwashers, so I cannot speak to that. In 10 years, I don't think I ever had a day when I could say everything on the boat is in working condition. When everything worked it was possible to single hand it and live almost like ashore.

My 38 I can fix everything myself, I can heft sail bags, I can rig it without help, single hand with ease, don't need power winches, bow thrusters...etc. Less stuff to break, less stuff to fix. Little dependence on others when things are too big and heavy to move. More time to sail.

Only you can pick the right tradeoff for you and how you are going to use the boat. I don't know how to say this kindly, but if you've never had a boat with complex big systems on it, you don't know what you don't know about what it takes to keep it running.

Washing machines, dish washers, power winches, pumps, air conditioners, fridges, generators, engines, power furlers....make life easy till they don't.

Pick a balance point for you, but do it with your eyes wide open.
 
#3 ·
Thanks for the perspective. That's exactly where I was hoping this thread would go. After posting I thought about it and felt I should add that to me, the ideal setup would be a pocket cruiser stuffed with the amenities I mentioned. As you stated, 38-42 gives you just enough space for you to accomplish these things. I looked at a Morgan/Catalina 50 and yes, I was impressed by the boat. It had everything I could ever ask for- but nonetheless, it was just too much boat. If I could shrink the living space down to 36-38, it would have been perfect. Totally agree with you regarding everything working at once. My 44' Chris Craft Connie had everything relevant 15 years ago, and it did seem that there was a balance between keeping everything working and actually using it.
 
#4 ·
When I first got into Big Boating, Modern Conveniences were practically unknown. Electronics were getting there, but a Stereo still meant a Boombox. Refrigeration was a 5lb block of Dry Ice. Cooking was an alcohol stove and a case of Dinty Moore. Showers were up at the Marinas, sometimes. First Mate was not impressed.
I'm now on a 29' Beneteau, which is about as large as I can handle alone, and I always plan on handling things alone, even when I have a Crew. I am making some things more convenient, though. She already came with a Jib Furler, and all lines were led aft.

Mod Cons are getting smaller and more efficient. Things like $100 Portable Icemakers were unknown a decade ago. I bought one for my boat, and it's a wonder, although it does make funny noises running off the Inverter. It fits in the cabinet under the sink while sailing.
No need for further refrigeration; when the ice bucket gets full, I top off my drink, and pour the rest into the Cooler.

Surprisingly, this tech is not driven by the Marine Market, but rather the Small House movement. There are now tabletop Washers and Dryers, all coming from China, where living space can be at a premium. There are even tabletop Dishwashers, which are plain silly on a Sailboat.

My Boat's 19" Polaroid LED TV runs off 12VDC. It only draws ~10 Watts at moderate brightness, and stashes under the Settee cushions. It's great, though, for displaying the GPS from my iPad. $90. I will probably replace it eventually with a Projector. On a dark night, I can project... Family Entertainment... on the Mainsail.
Sometimes, rethinking things can eliminate Mod Cons. Cold brewing coffee and tea eliminates the need for a coffeepot, although I still keep my tiny, ancient, $5 Swan Kettle. I brought the small Emerson Microwave home, because I simply didn't end up using it, and I hardly use it at home either. Oats can be cold-brewed too, overnight, with milk, and warmed up in a saucepan in the morning.

Air Conditioning is still an expensive, noisy, bulky, and hungry convenience. But note that the refrigeration parts of the new Portable Icemakers are only the size of a Milk carton. Why Air Condition the whole boat when only localized cooling is needed? There's a market there, somewhere...

There are now hand-held Shower Heads with the pump built in, which eliminates a whole bunch of plumbing. Just drop the end in a bucket of warm water, and shower just about anywhere. Hang a circular Shower Curtain off the boom, to eliminate neighborhood laughter; otherwise, wear earplugs.

Boat Lighting was always a pain, but LEDs have changed all that. It should be changed a lot more. Too much efficiency is lost in the Regulating Circuits built into the Bulbs themselves. This is done because the supplied Voltage changes so much, from a drained House Bank, to that of a rampaging Alternator. The solution is so simple; it could even be a retrofit for Fuse Holders or Breakers. It's called an LDO Regulator. Low Dropout Regulator. Two Bucks Fifty for the One Amp versions, which are just peachy for my needs. A few cheap capacitors are also needed, but they are also needed for the crappy RF Noise created by the current solutions.
LDOs regulate the Voltage at the Source; below ~12VDC, they track the Voltage. Above ~12VDC, they hold the Voltage constant to a ridiculous degree, but they are throwing away the wasted Alternator energy anyway.
Some clever Chap or Chapette should look into this. Get rid of the regulation in the LED Chips, and establish an LED Voltage Standard for Boat LEDs and LDOs, and make... Thousands.

When Frost is forming on the Mainsail Cover, it's time to start thinking about Heating. Four decades back, it was a Lethal Alcohol Heater, basically a small tub filled with Asbestos, and soaked with Stove Alcohol, and then lit.
But the alternative was- shivering in the smelly dark and dank. No wonder so many Sailors simply laid their boats up for the Winter.
I spent the last two Christmas Weeks down on the Boat. For Dockside, I use a terrific little Vornado Heater, set to a sane 375 Watts. It is directional- aimed at the Nav Station during the day, and into the Aft Cabin at night. When it got really cold outside, I put on socks.
Under way, under Power, the old Volvo Diesel radiated enough heat. Under Sail, I occasionally put on Socks.
I should mention Robes here- Target sells their fluffy calf-high version for ~$25, depending on Seasons and Sales. Highly Recommended. I have two on the Boat; one for me, and one for Crew. (If there is ever more than one Crew, they will have to share. I bought Extra Large.)

Well, to wrap up- I downsized to this specific Boat. I can handle it comfortably and in comfort, alone. It has some cutting-edge Tech. There are some Modern Conveniences missing, and rightly so, in my opinion. (I'm not a Hullabaloo- see Ransome.)

But if another First Mate comes along...
 
#6 ·
ErinD- Interesting take on it. The small house market along with the trucking industry and RV's have definitely had an influence on smaller and more efficient appliances. As this trickles down to us lowly sailors, it can't be anything but good. I looked at those tabletop washers. Man, 14" x 14" x 19" and you have a self contained unit that burns little power to wash your clothes. Unbelievable. Amazon has them. They even have one that's a little bigger and has a separate dryer, that drys by spinning instead of electrical heat. Do small loads, finish drying them in the sun and for $150 you don't have to smell like old fish and stale rum anymore. I think the company is called Panda. For the price of these things, if it lasts a year I'd be happy. But looking at them, they are very simple machines and I would imagine would be very easy to repair anyway. This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about. I could easily install an access door in my galley next to the refrigerator and fit that washer in there if I wanted. Run the drain hose to the shower sump that gets pumped out automatically and done. That's converting dead space to something usable. Build a small tray with rubber feet, add angle brackets to bolt it down and I imagine you would barely hear it running. 170 watts.....

Amazon.com: Bonus Package Panda Small Mini Portable Compact Washer Washing Machine 5.5lbs Capacity: Appliances@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/414K1w0Ic%2BL.@@AMEPARAM@@414K1w0Ic%2BL

I'll bet a small inverter would handle this thing without batting an eye.

A60- ? Why would I want a condo and a day sailor? I already have a house,two cars,three boats and two ex wives. I don't see how that would make a month long trip up to the Chesapeake any more convenient- or allow me to wash clothes and fill my scuba tanks while on that trip. I'd rather not charter a boat in the tropics when I could just sail my own boat there. It's already paid for. The gal would be happier if she could have air conditioning at the dock, take a shower without straddling the head and if were really rolling, not have to wash her clothes in a bucket. What conveniences have you installed on your boat? Why did you want them? Or why not? Did you downsize to find something simpler and easier to handle like Cape and ErinD or did you upsize in order to get more amenities?
 
#8 ·
I guess I just understood for long term cruising recreating all the comforts of home wasn't going to work....mostly from a maintenance point of view...and having to power all those goodies. if you can't fix it or repair it your self, then paradise ain't gonna be what you think it is. We've seen more folks give up because it was just to much work keeping all the stuff to make them comfy working. Yes, you have it all on land, so why not give some of it up? Laundry can be done on land by someone else...or in a 5 gallon bucket, and if your in the tropics you won't be wearing much anyway...and you can pick and chose when you do the laundry anyway, rolling around doing laundry? Ha Ha, you'll be lucky to be rolling in the hay. If your in the tropics, do you need a hot shower? Do you want to spend time and effort cleaning up that micro sized shower stall anyway? Most convert it to a hanging locker or beer storage anyway...Conveniences...a well insulated refrigeration box and a system that makes plenty of Ice for my G & T's. Solar and wind power that provides all the power I need. All the normal electronics, AP, windvane steering...a 24" flatscreen for movies....dive gear, kayak, fishing stuff, golf clubs, mountaineering gear, a few nice clothes..plenty of storage for my gals shoes and the LBD. Yes, I did have a dive compressor, but sold it off as it was really too much of a hassle...

So somewhere between 37 and 42....just big enough so when your gal jumps ship you can singlehand....Someone once told me " A smaller boat and a suitcase full of money"...damn good advice......

Anyway...just go for it. find a boat you like, something for a lifetime....
 
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#9 ·
Alan,
I would start with a realistic assessment of where you want to cruise. Your boat requirements to reach Tonga are VERY different from coastal cruising or island hopping in the Caribbean.

Living aboard full time also means a LOT of compromises - even if you have all the goodies.

For us the right answer is to move to the Keys when I retire. We'll keep our current boat, which should be fine for local cruising and short hops to the Bahamas. Our boat is a '95 Catalina 30 which works as a day sailer or as a short term live aboard. We can charter in the islands and maybe in the Med.

For us that's the right balance. If we were spending more time aboard 38-40 feet seems to be a sweet spot. But to be honest I don't see us doing that. Our boat has a bulkhead mounted flat screen, AC, stereo, LED lighting, etc, etc. But after about ten days aboard I'm ready for my own bed.

It's really about what's right for you.

Jim
 
#10 ·
Thanks for taking the time to give me more angles to look at. This is exactly why I brainstorm things well in advance. Forums make great sounding boards because you get a perspective from people who don't know you or who don't really have any stake in your experience. Which is exactly why I brought it up. Like I said in the opening post; this is hypothetical at the moment. I'm not saying I want or must have a washing machine. I just want to know what others think about it or if they are using any of this stuff. So far, it would seem that you guys downsized or didn't feel the need to have it in the first place. Though ErinD brought up, and I agree, that things have changed dramatically even over the last couple of years. What I personally had 15 years ago and considered unreliable is now commonplace and extremely reliable and cost effective. Remember when roller furlers were considered unsuitable for offshore work???

A60: That is the way I've always looked at my boat as well. I don't think it's reasonable to expect all the comforts of home anywhere except home. I was more interested in what people are using to make THEIR experience more comfortable. This question would not apply to the person who weekends or goes on evening cruises. That person has a completely different set of priorities than someone who wants to spend weeks at an anchorage. Whether that be around the corner from your marina or 1000 miles from home. I like my current boat. And I'll likely keep it until I find myself no longer willing to do without the things on my next boat list. The misses wants, wishes and concerns are really irrelevant to me as she has her own life and this is, has been and will remain my thing. She includes herself in my travels as little or as much as she wants to. I'm in a unique situation regarding that but it is way off the subject of my thread. Was the dive compressor a PIA because it always broke or because you didn't use it enough to warrant the space taken and maintenance on it?

Jim: Thanks for your perspective. If my initial post came off as a "should I do this" I must not have written it correctly so I may have to tweak it. That was not my intent nor what I was trying to solicit. I kinda know the answers to some of my own questions because much of it is as you said, whats right for you. I was more looking for other people's experiences with their own boats and whether they tried to add some of these conveniences or not. Or why not. From others people's experiences you can sometimes glean something that makes you think, hmmm. maybe I should approach this from another way because that may not work. So for you, that 30' boat, (nice boat by the way) offers just enough convenience, with AC, to enjoy the time you spend aboard. But if you spent more that a week though, you'd want something bigger. What would it take on board to make you "want your own bed" less? What would make that 38-40 fall into the sweet spot?

I know for me it was some of the things I mentioned earlier. When I stay out for a week, I don't want to go camping on my boat. If I want to go camping, I'll load a tent on the kayak and go camping. I am not a live aboard. Doubt I'll ever be one. I may end up doing some long term cruising though. I guess what I'm interested in is whats right for you. What would you do to your current boat or what is on your next boat list that would make your boat feel more like home and less like something you camp on?

The power went out the other night during a storm. It was then that I realized I depended to much on shore power. Now I am going to start finding ways to make the boat more self sufficient and less dependent on the dock. When it's nice and sunny out while at anchor, it doesn't matter as much. But when your buttoned up and the AC power is out....you realize you should have installed an extra 12v fan here or there. Washing clothes is just an example I used to set a boundary at the extreme end of convenience. To me, somewhere in the middle would be Jim's flat screen TV. I don't have one. To me that is a very nice convenience item. I could definitely see the usefulness in that, provided I could power it with the boat disconnected from the dock. On the low end would be ErinD's robes...:) but hey, it's comfortable and it keeps you warm right? Just don't bend over on deck when the winds blowing!

So what other non essential convenience gear do people have? I set the bar at a 53' Amel Super Maramu. My god that boat comes stock with everything you could ever ask for. Unfortunately, a decent one is about 150k more than I would ever be willing to spend on a boat.
 
#17 ·
So for you, that 30' boat, (nice boat by the way) offers just enough convenience, with AC, to enjoy the time you spend aboard. But if you spent more that a week though, you'd want something bigger. What would it take on board to make you "want your own bed" less? What would make that 38-40 fall into the sweet spot?
Hmm, that's an interesting question. An inner spring mattress for starters. A bit larger galley with more freezer space. More overall storage space aboard, and generally more space to move around. A cockpit where I didn't have to climb up and around the wheel. A bigger head/shower and larger hot water heater. A generator.

On our 30 I'm good for up to ten days before I start feeling like I have cabin fever. That said I could do 3-4 weeks exploring the coast since you have things to explore that get you off the boat. I'm a big guy so elbow room and head room are VERY important for me. So yes moving up in size would make it comfortable to stay aboard longer.

The Catalina 385 is a boat I could see myself on for extended trips. But then I'm looking at what, $250-$280K sail away? At 51 I'd rather invest that money toward our retirement and do an occasional charter. Our boat is paid for and I've been through every part of her. There are no surprises.

Again, it's about that balance and where we are in life.

To me, somewhere in the middle would be Jim's flat screen TV. I don't have one. To me that is a very nice convenience item. I could definitely see the usefulness in that, provided I could power it with the boat disconnected from the dock.
We purchased our 12v 19" w/DVD at a truck stop a few years ago. You can get 12v flat screens, some with built in DVD/Blu-ray players up to about 32 inches designed for trucks for about half what I see them for in marine catalogs; and RV stores are another good source for convenience items.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Almost forgot to add:

Something I've noticed and I've noticed it enough that it might be a trend. When people start out sailing, they usually begin on a simple, no frills sailing vessel. Then, if they liked it, they gradually increase the boats size and complexity to suit whatever they think or know they want. Then as they get older or when they start to slow down, they gradually start moving back towards the simple, no frills sailing vessel. I personally know a few older guys who used to have large multi room vessels who now sail little day sailors. And they are always smiling when they come back in. Obviously, and I totally agree, the sailing comes first. This thread is about the extra stuff. Your anchor is set and your sails are covered.
 
#12 · (Edited)
I have 43' boat, which was a move up from my 39' first boat. I'm not going to make a boat item list, but far as useful space and accessories 46-48' is the sweet size for a couple!
 
#13 ·
Best thing I've done to mine from a comfort standpoint was to install offshore rated sliding ports with insect screens that pop in and two solar vents on exhaust to keep constant air moving and allow for better venting on hot days.
 
#14 ·
We choose 46' as the cut off point. I have singled this boat without difficulty. All watches except in storms are single handed. I have all powered winches but can run the boat easily without them. Main issue is the main as at my age need to do the last few feet at the slow speed of the two speed winches. I can take the sails off by myself but it difficult . It's much easier with my wife helping.
At mid forties you can have the comforts of home but still the redundancy of a functional boat when any of the gizmos break.
Our (wife and I) attitude is the comforts equal safety. Being warm when it's cold or the reverse, dry, rested and happy helps us make good decisions and have the strength to carry on in adversity. So we have the AC, hydronic heat, multiple source of electricity etc. We are comfy and have room for what we want as well as need.
We are in our sixties but hopefully will be cruising into our eighties so planned the boat with that in mind.
Last and biggest point. Bigger boats are safer. Harder to knock down, easier ride, and longer lwl means greater days work so less exposure to weather.
There are so many good designs for blue water cruising that will fit most budgets in the 40-50' range. Personally think low to mid 40s is the sweet spot for a cruising couple.
 
#15 ·
The answer must come from you. What do you need? What do you want? And what can you afford, both financially and with you other resources like time, skill, effort, etc. we chose a 37-footer, although our range was 36 to 42. Our boat doesn't have all the conveniences you list, but it's pretty darn comfortable. Most importantly, it has what we need.

So I'd say, know thy self, and find a boat that matches.


Why go fast, when you can go slow
 
#16 ·
Interesting question. I have never even considered wanting a washer and dryer on a boat and would never want to pay for the space, water, and electric overhead, but then I won't be living on a boat either.

I have a very nice boat. It has a lot of the conveniences that I could never have imagined when I was a kid sailing on my folks San Juan 21. It has two heads, a separate shower, king size bed, decent sized refer, etc.... Even so, it doesn't have things that I would kind of like to have but have been to cheap to install such as an anchor wash-down pump and bow thruster.

The one boat that I have been on that seemed to be the perfect balance of everything I could want without being two difficult to single-hand was the new Catalina 445. This isn't the Catalina/Morgan 440 (although a very nice boat it is of a different type) but a relatively new design. It has, or can have, everything I think I could wish for. I would have bought one when I bought my Catalina 400 but the 445 was a new design and no used boats were on the market. It would have cost me an EXTRA $150k to buy and outfit one. But when I find myself with a case of the "wants" and dream of other boats, the Catalina 445 is what is in my mind.
 
#18 ·
from a thread I started at the "other" cruising site:

I'm curious on what people think the best couples cruising sailboats are.For me some of the items that would be part of a best couples boat would be (and this is to some degree based on my age):

- It would have a queen centerline berth. We need to get up at night and crawling over each other to do so gets old.
- It would have good size shower and the water/power capacity to take a good hot shower regularly and it would need to be able to hold us without banging an elbow every time you try to wash something
- It would have a gallery large to to hold more than 1 butt to be in it at a time
- I would have at table large enough to play a double 12 domino game (knocks out most center cockpit boats)
- it would have a good size freezer/frig for obvious reasons
- it would have enough fuel to motor at least 500 miles because we aren't getting younger and sometimes just want to get there
- it wouldn't have a bunch of steep steps to get down into the boat
- with wouldn't take a gymnast to work on the engine or get to the bottom of lockers
- the cockpit wouldn't require you to step up on the settees to get around the helm wheel
- it would be 45-50' because I know that is what it will take plus add the other space, storage and comfort a couple would like
- it would have a berth that makes a good sea berth other that the floor or the salon (good double aft berth would work)
-it would have an easy to handle sailplan even if that isn't as fast and would have oversize winches
- it would have a dry ride
- it would sail fairy flat and more than 15 degrees heel would not be needed to get to 80% hull speed on a close reach
- it would be easy to get on/off to the dock/dinghy/launch (knees)
- space for a guess couple, but not so great that they over-stay their welcome
 
#79 ·
- It would have a queen centerline berth. We need to get up at night and crawling over each other to do so gets old.
- It would have good size shower and the water/power capacity to take a good hot shower regularly and it would need to be able to hold us without banging an elbow every time you try to wash something
- It would have a gallery large to to hold more than 1 butt to be in it at a time
- I would have at table large enough to play a double 12 domino game (knocks out most center cockpit boats)
- it would have a good size freezer/frig for obvious reasons
- it would have enough fuel to motor at least 500 miles because we aren't getting younger and sometimes just want to get there
- it wouldn't have a bunch of steep steps to get down into the boat
- with wouldn't take a gymnast to work on the engine or get to the bottom of lockers
- the cockpit wouldn't require you to step up on the settees to get around the helm wheel
- it would be 45-50' because I know that is what it will take plus add the other space, storage and comfort a couple would like
- it would have a berth that makes a good sea berth other that the floor or the salon (good double aft berth would work)
-it would have an easy to handle sailplan even if that isn't as fast and would have oversize winches
- it would have a dry ride
- it would sail fairy flat and more than 15 degrees heel would not be needed to get to 80% hull speed on a close reach
- it would be easy to get on/off to the dock/dinghy/launch (knees)
- space for a guess couple, but not so great that they over-stay their welcome
Heh. You want a Gemini.

I'm not knocking that. I want one too.
 
#20 ·
Don01: Thanks for replying, I find it interesting that sometimes that extra 4' is all it takes. It's amazing how much more boat you get for those extra few feet. I remember when I went from 25 to 30. The 30 felt like a HUGE boat even after spending a lot of time testing out a 27. My wife was even concerned that it wouldn't be as fun because we were so far removed from the water! Now that I'm used to it, it feels like and I can maneuver it like a toy. When I first stepped aboard a Catalina 36 MKII while visiting Texas, I remember saying to myself, "now this is a big boat"....for me, I think the maximum size boat would be the one that remains feeling like that. Though I think there is something to be said about a smaller boat that you always feel in control of. I think some of the reason I always felt safe on my smaller Catalina's was because a small boat with small sails equals a small load on lines, anchor rode ect....I can only imagine the horror of something getting away from you in a breeze on a 50' boat.

I find it really interesting though that 30 years ago, 30' was considered a pretty big cruising sailboat. I mean the majority of of "round the world" adventure books written by the pioneers of this sport were in boats ranging from 27' to 35'. Jim B's Triton, Jean D-S's Alberg and John K's Contessa come to mind. I think that the very items I'm discussing in this thread have a lot to do with this increase in cruising boat size. I remember when I started this lifestyle I went out and sailed on a few Tritons and smaller Allied's, though I was absolutely stricken by their beauty, in the back of my mind I was saying "no way would I want to stay for weeks on this thing". It works for some but I definitely knew early on that I wanted more within the boat.

S97: That inspired an angle I hadn't thought of yet. Alternate ways to achieve an end without over complicating things. I personally have never had to leave an anchorage because it was too hot. Between the big sliding hatches Catalina's have, and the use of various funnel devices on the forward hatch, I've always managed to stay somewhat comfortable. Though that sometimes required spending the hottest portion of the day in the water. But you bring up a good point. A properly ventilated boat may not require an air conditioner as much. My current boat has 0 opening port lights. The tiny one in the head was designed to open but it leaked enough by design that I sealed it up. A few opening port lights are definitely on my next boat list.

OutB: "We are comfy and have room for what we want as well as need." Isn't that exactly what it's all about? While I admire the guys roughing it out there and the supreme eco friendly zero footprint people I am not one of them. I spent 20 years in all the nastiest places in the world living in the dirt and I don't want to do that ever again. I want and can afford some small comforts. You guys sound like you have a nicely outfitted boat that suits your wants and needs.

MikeO: That seems to be the range. In my opening post, that is basically where I was at. 36 is the starting point for a separate shower. 38 and up really starts to get nice. Most of what is on my next boat list did not result from sitting around brainstorming. It came from actual experiences where I found myself repeating the same things or cussing about one thing or another. My examples were to open the discussion with extremes and see where it went. My actual list is more along the lines of; A separate shower, electric windlass, self contained air conditioning at the dock and refrigeration. The list is pretty short but then again, I'm pretty happy with my C-30. 3 of those can be added to my current boat and likely will be. I'm just about coming to the end of a multi year refit so it's almost time for the toys. What was your reason for setting the limits of 36-42?

DHay: Yeah they are nice aren't they! Your post brings up a good observation though. Will there ALWAYS be a next boat list? You currently have the boat that is on my very short list of boats. I looked at a 400 a few years ago that was a repo and listed pretty cheap. I think it was sitting at 79k and sold for 70k. It had every luxury except a dive compressor. Yet, to you, the 445 sets the standard. This makes me think that it is a never ending quest. Once you get used to what your current boat offers, no matter how nice it may seem now, there will always be more. :)

This is the stuff I think about. Thank the gods for forums where I can hash this stuff out without my head exploding! Jim, yeah those 385's are nice. I think they said at the show that Frank and Gary wanted to return to a more traditional boat and I think they hit a home run. I am a big fan of the Catalina boats. I have yet to be on one I didn't like. I think they offer exactly what most people need and suit the type of sailing that most people actually do. If you actually take the time to look at one the quality is pretty high. Especially in the newer boats. Business model alone does not allow you to stay in business as long as they have with the same guy at the helm.

I think it is very important to note that a lot of what you guys are describing as your choice of comfort items are very common these days. I think it goes back to our standard has risen, due to many factors; higher income, lower cost and vastly improved technology. I mean, yes there is something to be said about keeping it simple, but some of this stuff is just to cheap to not at least try. A60 mentioned earlier that he has seen people give up because they couldn't fix all the fancy stuff they had on board. I think with that it's important for us to differentiate between a comfort item and an item that is vital to the yacht. Unless you require some sort of automation due to age or health, none of this stuff is really necessary for a boat to sail and travel. I think it's important to remember that this is supposed to be a fun pastime/lifestyle. If your ac goes down and you find yourself freaking out and questioning your lifestyle choice, then I question whether you really understand what this lifestyle is supposed to be about. When I am out and about and a comfort item breaks, I change my actions to adapt to the loss, make a plan to fix it whenever I can or want to and drive on. To keep it in perspective, we don't NEED any of this stuff.
 
#21 ·
My idea of a properly outfitted boat, when discussing these comfort and convenience items, is a boat that when you first walk into the cabin, you don't see any of this stuff. You may see the electrical panels that control it but that's it. To get underway, you just turn it off and close the seacocks, or make sure the dishwasher is empty. On calm island hops, you may not even have to do that. Washing your clothes while motoring a few miles to the next anchorage- all the while topping off your batteries sounds like cruiser heaven to me.
The photo below is a spot the Newfies call "The Squid Hole"... It was my first-ever anchorage in Newfoundland, I ghosted in there under sail on a dying breeze that evening, after a perfect passage across the Cabot Strait from Bay St. Lawrence...

This pic, and that day, will always represent as well as any, the idea of "Cruiser Heaven", for me... Despite the fact I never managed to wash my clothes that day enroute...

;-)



I think the modern quest by many cruisers to 'Have It All' while 'Out There' is fundamentally flawed, and a likely recipe for becoming a captive to marina living, and living the life for a shorter duration, rather than longer... I believe it's delusional to think you can have stuff like dishwashers and clothes dryers - and the space to service them, as well - aboard a boat remotely close to the 40 foot range... Sounds to me like you're also a bit naive about how 'trouble-free, reliable, and energy efficient" many of these things of which you speak really are... And all that crap will only further degrade whatever sailing performance the boat may have initially possessed, so you'll wind up sailing less, and motoring more as a result, so there's that...

The long term cruisers I know who are happiest and most 'successful', are those who have fully embraced the notion that cruising really is DIFFERENT from living on dirt in a very fundamental way... That's what makes it so special, after all... Those who want all the comforts of home should probably stay there, unless they're gonna commit to going the route of something like an Oyster 625...

Leave to to The Modern Kroozer, to have devised a means of 'independent living' as nonsensical as having to run a generator, in order to run a watermaker, in order to supply water for the dishwasher...

;-)
 
#22 · (Edited)
Just from talking to others, 36-39' seems to be the sweet spot, at least for a single person, and for the older style sailboats with the narrower beam.

I may be biased because I'm on a 1980 36', but I can single-hand it myself and still manage to fit on a heater, pressure water, a hot water tank, a fridge/freezer etc.

Anything under 35' you start to make a lot more compromises, and 40' and over you start paying more by the foot for moorage/haul outs, and it's harder to single hand.

This may change with a modern boat with the more effective use of space, but I've only really been on older boats.

Also as noted this is for a single person (as I am intending to stay that way) - so if you are in a couple it may not work for you
 
#23 ·
I'm fully in Jon's camp when it comes to the desire to bring it all with you. My 37 has all I and my spouse need to live comfortably at sea or at anchor. It does not have many of the conveniences now touted as essential, but we somehow manage to thrive in our little home.

But you asked how I arrived at the 36 to 42 for foot range when searching for 'the next boat'. Like you, it came from learning what we needed and wanted by living and learning with a previous boat (a 34' ketch). As someone on the frugal end of economic and spiritual life I approached the question differently than most apparently do. I went looking for the smallest boat we could live with. This approach seems diametrically opposed to what most people do, but it was our guide.

With that as our guiding principle I started the search through all the possible boats that would do what we wanted, and were within our price range. This produced a moderately long list ranging from boats like a Pearson 365 to a Whitby 42.


Why go fast, when you can go slow
 
#24 · (Edited)
We've also taken Mike's approach of asking ourselves what is the smallest boat we could live with while searching for our next boat. We like to keep things simple and minimize the amount of time we have to spend fixing things.

For us, we initially thought 36' was ideal and really honed in one particular model. Almost talked ourselves into making an offer on one. But before we did we found ourselves sitting on our Bristol 24 and commenting, not for the first time, "if she was only a tiny bit longer and a tiny bit wider, we'd keep her." We're in our third season and have spent two weeks at a time on her, and not once have we thought, "Boy we wish we had pressure water" (a foot pump, yes, but not pressure water) or "Boy we wish we had hot water." For us, her only drawbacks were her lack of storage for the food, water, and supplies needed for extended cruising and her headroom (Mr. cthoops is 6'4"). Everything else was truly perfect for us.

We eventually realized that we had started falling into the trap of bigger, but not because we really needed 12 more feet. It was just because. Maybe for the same reason why people with no children buy 2,000 sf houses. Who knows? Anyway, this caused us to take another hard look at our list.

Bottom line, we have a survey pending on Thursday for a Bristol 29.9. She's a bit longer, and a bit wider, but still very simple. We know with a certainty that we can take this boat cruising and be happy. Other people couldn't imagine cruising on a boat that size and with those amenities (or lack thereof). That's o.k. too.

A person needs to figure out what modern conveniences he or she MUST have, and that will (to some extent) dictate boat size. If the result doesn't work for whatever reason (budget, complexity, etc.), then it's time to really take a hard look at the "must" list and try to pare it down. Maybe a "must" will turn into a "nice to have". At some point the size and the conveniences will (hopefully) meet.
 
#25 ·
Jon: Yours is a point of view, and a welcome one. Hence the reason I wanted to talk about it. You should know that I've only recently begun carrying ice to the boat. For years I would wrap a wet cloth around the bottle and sit it in front of the fan. I have no refrigeration and no air conditioning but my varnish looks nice and my rigging is new. :) But keep in mind that there are many types of cruisers. I have a Catalina 30. Granted a very upgraded and stout one but I am not leaving for Tonga tomorrow. I may be cruising north into the Chesapeake next spring though. But nonetheless if you read my posts I'm simply feeling this out. You cannot deny that tech has made things nicer for all of us. So I get it and respect your opinion that you feel we should all sail like Slocum and forage for food while drinking warm water. I've already done that and in the future, I want to have a little more. So what comfort items do you have on your boat or what would be on your next boat list? From robes to water makers.

ALC: Nice! You pretty much have all the items modern production boats of that size are coming with as standard now. Those items have become increasingly important to people. Where I live, I can tell you each and every boat that goes out sailing every week and my memory is not very good. Most sit at the dock, and to comfortably sit at the dock, those features make life much better. Did you install or have installed any of that gear or did the boat come with it? Have you found it to be reliable or does most of it stay in a state of repair?

MikeO: "I went looking for the smallest boat we could live with." That is some serious wisdom that I have heard a lot. You're right, that does not seem to be what's popular anymore among the weekend crowd. But then again, I get mad when my wife tries to invite more than three or four of her friends out on my boats. They get in the way and I have to keep an eye on all of them. However, on the other side of the coin every weekend I watch what seems like a continuous stream of people piling onto boats, the more the merrier. So I think that has dictated their choice of boat.

From what is starting to play out here, the choice of comfort items on board really correlates heavily with the mindset of the cruiser. On one end you have JonE and on the other you have CapeC's 52' boat when he had it. A lot of us seem to fall in between. There is no doubt in my mind that as the generations of cruisers progress, we will and are seeing a shift from Jon to CapeC (generalizing here). Leaving out the carbon footprint people, newer and younger generations of cruisers have to means for and want to have some of the things from home it would seem. In my opinion, it is unwise to turn your back on technological advancement. As an example, where are all the guys who predicted horrible accidents and thousands of lost boats when people put their sextant on the mantle and started to rely on multiple GPS units? Granted, and I agree, that it is prudent to have a manual backup and the skill to use it but can anyone really tell me the last time all three of your GPS units stopped working and you had to rely on a sextant? I'm using these as examples that people can relate to to the same could be said about modern day refrigeration or power inverters. Now please understand, I'm not standing on either side of the fence here nor do I have or feel you must have any of the stuff we're talking about. I am just interested in what other people are doing and what they think about it.
 
#34 · (Edited)
You cannot deny that tech has made things nicer for all of us.
I CAN, actually... I've been in the yacht delivery business for most of my adult life, after all, and I often have the 'pleasure' of having to deal with much of that nice "tech"... :)

One of the most miserable trips I've ever had was a delivery to Tortola aboard a state-of-the-art $1.3 million 50-footer from a highly regarded Dutch yard, an incredibly sophisticated and 'systems heavy' named a CRUISING WORLD Boat of the Year...

Having been built with 'Performance' in mind, she was watermaker-dependent, with somewhat minimal water tankage... When the RO went tits up second day of the trip, we were forced to revert to a very strict rationing mode... Good thing there were no ladies aboard, I think we each had 2 Navy-style showers over the course of the next 8 days...

The toilets aboard were fresh water flush... Wasn't exactly a "convenience" to have to drag a bucket of seawater below each time to make them usable...

'Climate control' on that boat underway was highly generator dependent... There was virtually no natural ventilation that could be opened when sailing to weather, no dorades, the only ventilation available was the air-conditioning system... Unfortunately, we encountered tradewinds conditions very early on into the trip, turned into a hard beat to weather for most of the last week. But under the deep angle of heel we were carrying in order to fetch our destination, the generator kept shutting down due to a low oil level alarm/cutoff... The boat became a virtual sauna below decks, and the off watch often wound up sleeping in the cockpit...

Perhaps worst of all, it sure would have been nice to have a simple French Press aboard... For in order to brew coffee with the snazzy Miele cappucino machine, it would be necessary to either furl the jib, or fall off in order for the boat to become sufficiently upright to make a cup of brew... ;-)

Of course, the electric motor for the Leisure-Furl system crapped out even before we got out of the Chesapeake... So, someone always had to go to the mast to reef, or shake one out, anyway... Gotta love that "tech", alright... ;-)

I've gotten to the point where whenever I get aboard one of these High-Tech boats, I simply try to avoid using any of that stuff as much as possible. Chances are good it might only make more work for me, in the end... Most of this stuff is so shoe-horned into tight spots and inaccessible, I don't ever want to have to touch it... The 45-footer I just ran out to Lake Erie, I was very thankful I never really had to rely on the generator, for example... Simply checking the oil on that thing was hard enough, actually having to add some could have been a near-impossibility, at least without making quite a mess... Have you ever seen where the generator goes on a Valiant 42? If you think you could actually service that thing effectively, you are either a far smaller, more nimble, or better man than I ;-) So, when I hear people speaking of stuffing generators and such into boats under 40 feet, I simply have to shake my head in wonder, I think they have no idea what they might be setting themselves up for...

So I get it and respect your opinion that you feel we should all sail like Slocum and forage for food while drinking warm water. I've already done that and in the future, I want to have a little more. So what comfort items do you have on your boat or what would be on your next boat list? From robes to water makers.
No, you don't get it at all, I am suggesting no such thing... I think most would probably find the 30-footer I sail is far better equipped than most of her size. I have multiple sources of heat, for instance, and a wider means of generating battery charging than most, without having to rely on the ubiquitous Honda 2000... I've watched Super Bowls aboard my boat while anchored in Miami, a few seasons of BREAKING BAD while anchored in Labrador, all while enjoying a nice cold beverage... So, I'm not exactly a devotee of cruising Slocum-style... ;

In my opinion, it is unwise to turn your back on technological advancement. As an example, where are all the guys who predicted horrible accidents and thousands of lost boats when people put their sextant on the mantle and started to rely on multiple GPS units? Granted, and I agree, that it is prudent to have a manual backup and the skill to use it but can anyone really tell me the last time all three of your GPS units stopped working and you had to rely on a sextant? I'm using these as examples that people can relate to to the same could be said about modern day refrigeration or power inverters. Now please understand, I'm not standing on either side of the fence here nor do I have or feel you must have any of the stuff we're talking about. I am just interested in what other people are doing and what they think about it.
You obviously haven't been paying very close attention, people are now driving boats up onto reefs at a rate that would seem to exceed that of the time of the Smeetons, and Hiscocks... Eight boats lost and counting this year, in the San Blas Islands alone...

What I think is "unwise", is rather to "turn your back on" simple, elegant 'non-technical' solutions that have proven their worth over time...

As per my earlier example, dorade vents and hatches that can be opened underway, water tanks of sufficient size, stuff like that...

;-)

Hmmm, speaking of the perils/downsides of high-tech, remember Stanley Paris? Seems like he tired of this one rather quickly...

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/201...Cruiser-2861203/ME/United-States#.VbgikUV6jIB
 
#26 · (Edited)
CT: Excellent post! So for you, your next boat list was simply headroom and storage space.

Something else to add, conversely, some people would not remain long term cruisers IF they had to carry ice and water all the time. I think that in a way, these comfort items can in fact make your life more comfortable and hence, more enjoyable. To some, the simplicity of life is enough. To others, they want to be as inconvenienced as possible. Note, there is no correct way or right way to cruise. The right way is however you cruise.
 
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