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is this folly?

8K views 78 replies 21 participants last post by  Capt Len 
#1 ·
hi all,

obviously i am new here, and i am also a novice sailor. i am however a fairly experienced adventurer. so i just wanted to get some thoughts/feedback on an idea i had to see if you guys with much more sea experience think it's a bad idea.

here's what i want to do: i am going to be building a larger, more open water friendly version on a pd racer. then i want to take her from Traverse Bay to Beaver Island. part of this idea is to see how much i can get away with doing things without electrical aids, and as such would be doing the open water part with only a compass.

hahahaha, i am sure most of you are already shaking your heads and thinking i am dumb for even entertaining this notion. and you are probably right. but what I am looking for is some real constructive criticism about things to keep in mind that might help me from drowning. thanks for any feedback all, and have a good one...

:ship-captain:
 
#2 ·
It's a bad idea.
 
#3 ·
There's a lot of room left in your post for interpretation.

First of all, the electronics issue is a total non issue, I am sure people familiar with the area sail to Beaver Island all the time without electronics. I don't think finding a large populated island 32 miles offshore without electronics would even qualify as unique or challenging. However, I would strongly consider carrying some emergency rescue electronics like a spot or an EPIRB in case you do get into trouble.

The boat issue is different. If your plan is to build a proper plywood vessel from plans, using recognised construction techniques- I think it sounds like fun. If your plan is to build some plywood box POS out of gorilla glue and decking screws- it's a dumb idea, likely to get yourself killed.

Provided you do plan on building a reasonably sound boat, you wear a drysuit and don't take silly risks, it might work.
 
#4 ·
The drysuit is for when your boat founders because you don't belong on the water, and you're floating around in fifty degree water and need someone to rescue you before you freeze to death.

It would be a lonely, black, frightening death.

The drysuit would give you fifty or sixty minutes to think and scream that you wouldn't have without it before you die.
 
#5 ·
So you're assuming a properly constructed unballasted plywood boat would sink like a stone? Capsize and swamping seem like more likely outcomes to me. I have found myself unexpectedly capsized, swamped and just generally in the water unplanned on the great lakes, each on more than one occasion, and I can say from experience, I would rather do it with a dry suit on, than without one on. You know people swim in the great lakes, right?

I am saying with a proper boat, proper boat, proper boat, proper preparation and proper gear it can be done, I'm not saying he should just wing it.

http://www.soloswims.com/swims.htm
 
#6 ·
ahha,

well thanks for the good chuckle j-6. and i appreciate your direct opinion.

with regards to arcb's input, i agree that navigating would probably (?) be the least of my worries. my main concern there would be sailing and navigating single-handed. like i can see myself trying to take bearings, run the tiller, and trim the sail and by the time i take a good reading i've already blown a bit off course. then fast forward till it's dark and i completely miss the island and end up sailing into the u.p. and/or a storm.

as for the boat, I would like to build a sound 12-footer with a semi- enclosed deck and relatively high gunwales to avoid as much overlapping as possible. i plan on having airboxes on all sides and a mast-float. in the event of capsizing i will have to practice with it and see how realistic it is to right the ship in a decent chop by myself. the more i think about this the more i would like to have a second hand.

so i know that the winds would most likely be from the west or s-west, and i would be heading due north. in your experience, how long of a sail would i have assuming an average of about 4 mph and 30 mile crossing in perfect conditions? hahaha, sorry , i know so little as to not even know what i really need to know. the wetsuit is a good idea, as are emergency beacons jic. thanks!
 
#8 ·
kriscross (will make you -jump, jump!),

not sure i get your jesus reference. i hope to not be in the water if at all possible. and yes, i agree that adventures can be had almost anywhere! this summer will be spent on the water as much as possible. next summer would be the most likely time i would try open water. and as far as a boat, they are expensive and i would prefer to make my own. unless you have a spare laying around that you would like to give me ;)
 
#11 ·
Dude, you want to build a pd racer from scratch. That WILL cost you far more than a used sailboat you can pick up on eBay and sail right away. I bought several of them that way.
As to 'walking on water' reference: when you decide to sail a pd racer from Traverse Bay to Beaver Island you will be walking back home because these boats will not make it.
 
#13 ·
ha! thanks for the input guys and gals...

so no, i have never built a boat. i have built lots of other things, but never a boat. and as far as materials i have plenty of ways to keep the costs down (salvaged materials and fiberglass kit) and fully expect to have a sound boat for around $500. and part of this whole idea is to go from nothing to completing a (fairly decent) open water sail with minimal cost and experience!

and denise those pictures are of class-spec pd racers which is the only type of boat i have ever sailed. my plan is to build a slightly larger hull for open water and have a bit more sail for higher speeds. i know this seems crazy, but i also know that human beings sailed across the oceans thousands of years ago with less boat than an average sailor today. and after all, it's only 30 miles of open water :(

my take is overwhelmingly then that this is a bad idea...
 
#14 ·
Rent a boat for a couple of days from somewhere that will cost you a lot less time and money than building your own, not to mention be much safer.

Here's a suggestion for one.

Have fun, and remember there is no vessel or trip too small in which a float plan given to a friend or family member isn't a good idea.
 
#15 · (Edited)
i am however a fairly experienced adventurer.
in your experience, how long of a sail would i have assuming an average of about 4 mph and 30 mile crossing in perfect conditions?!
These two comments seem to be in conflict. Whether by land, sea or air, every adventurer I know starts their day by figuring how far they have to go and how long it will take.

The kind of boat you are talking about I would figure 1-2 knots if it rows well, and I would plan on lots of rowing if the weather going to be nice enough to finish.

If you are serious about doing this, I see it as a multi year project, given your experience. Put a boat together with the goal of crossing one of the southern arms of Grand Traverse Bay. 4 miles across open water should be plenty to scare you the first year. Make improvements to your design over several years, and when you're ready, you can build something, that rows well for the big crossing.

It's an interesting sounding project, but you could have a really awful or even deadly experience if you rush it.
 
#16 ·
For under $500 you can get this Catalina 27 in Michigan: 1983 Catalina 27' Sailboat - Michigan | eBay
And it is a proper boat, with engine and good set of sails, that can take you sailing all over Great Lakes in relative safety and comfort.
But if you want to create your own Jackass episode, by all means, sail a pd racer to Beaver Island ;)
 
#17 ·
PD Racer to Beaver Island. Possible yes but why? It would probably take many days to make that sail in a PD Racer. No guarantee on weather, which changes quickly on the Great Lakes. Under absolute perfect wind and seas 30 miles at 4 mph is approximately 8 hours and you will not ever hold a perfect course, or find a wind sustained at 15 for from one direction for 8 hours or seas so friendly. I would be amazed if you made it under 30 hours. Use barometer and mind the lows. First try going to the Manitou islands after extensive practice in snotty conditions. Fog is a possibility making a GPS worth while. How far and long do you think you could paddle your PD Racer filled with water, freezing your butt off, puking over the side from your new found seasickness? There are so many boats that can be had cheap that would be way more fun, way safer, for very little money. Put up a wanted free sailboat listing on Craigslist spend some time learning in the bay, figure what needs fixing and reinforcing, get some safety gear, consider all the what ifs.

If you want to build a boat. The PD Racer is probably a great first and affordable boat to build. You could learn a ton sailing around in the bay on a little PD Racer and my guess is that you would soon realize why a minimum of 30 hours on the big lake is not what you want. You would still have learned a ton had a great adventure and built a boat. Not so bad.
 
#19 ·
hey again all,

thanks again for all the input! @Waterrat, that is the sort of calculations and advice i was hoping to receive. realistic sailing experience with timing and expectations (not that the rest of you all don't have realistic experience and advice). and yes, my plan is to sail the width and breadth of both bays in a single go as a training trip. if it takes me 3 days, then it takes me 3 days.

arcb, i don't feel the need to elaborate on my experience other than to say i have more outdoor experience than most people combined in some of the most remote places on earth, and most often alone. which is why i know enough to seek advice on things i know nothing about. and i know enough that sailing and driving, or sailing and hiking are two totally unrelated things when it comes to planning and timing. i have never sailed open water. and i only have limited sailing experience.

i think the suggestions about a motor boat "sag-wagon" is a great idea. and to answer the question of "why", because it sounds like a great adventure and something i have never done before. i also agree that 30 hours sailing single-handed in a small boat would be a whole lot. and i have not entered seasickness into the equation so far, so that is also great to keep in mind!!

also waterrat, i see you are in Michigan. would you mind teaching me a few things hands-on? all the real experience i can get would be very helpful.
 
#22 ·
No scam. These are boats donated to legit charities. When there is no demand for this type of boat, they sell for next to nothing. Bought 3 boats that way, all under $400 total money paid. I fixed them up, sailed for a while, and then sold them for a bit of profit.
 
#21 ·
Knowledge!
This is a prime example why I think the Coast Guard should charge for rescue.
Guy with 0 experience setting of in a completely unsuitable boat.
I sail a 25' boat on the great lakes, weather can change in minutes and give you a real butt kicking.
Seen it go from flat calm to 2-3 meter waves in under an hour!
 
#23 · (Edited)
I didn't ask you to elaborate on your experience.

I disagree with you that the fundamentals of land navigation are different than the fundamentals of water navigation. If you have to hike 12 km and your known walking speed is 4 kph, you can estimate the hike will take about 3 hours. That's why I gave you the more realistic figure of 1-2 knots to work with.

The shortest possible route from traverse city to Beaver island is about 56 miles. Taking the shortest route would be a rather risky approach (not the approach I would use). For a realistic figure, for actual distance covered, I would double the distance on a map. So let's call that 112 miles. At an optimistic 2 knots, that's 56 hours of sailing time.

I kind of assume this boat will have no autopilot, so let's say 12 hour days. So there you go, I would plan about 4 and a half days.
 
#24 ·
If you want to make the trip in the most seaworthy boat you can afford, get a used sailboat. If your motivation for doing this is to make it across in what appears to be a very unsuitable boat, then not only make the big PD Racer out out plywood, go ahead and make it out of residential exterior sheathing and Gorilla glue. There are plenty of people who have done crazier things. One caveat; don't involve the Coast Guard if things go wrong.
 
#27 ·
arcb, i appreciate your input. i would suggest that maybe for someone like you that has experience calculating sailing time it is not much different than land-speed calculations. but certainly i did not come up with around 4 days to sail 30+ miles! this is why i am here asking super basic questions. to you, easy, to a landlubber like me, not so much.

and i agree that i don't want the coast guard involved, and they probably should charge me if they have to rescue me! Tarski is right and i couldn't agree more. i don't want to die, or cause trouble, i just want a challenge and to do something that seems hard and something that not everybody would want to do. i don't think there is anything wrong with that especially if i take precautions. wait for the best weather window, have a motor boat tag along in case i get into trouble. have a dry suit and emergency beacon for even more safety. etc.

thanks to you all for these great suggestions.
 
#29 ·
"Is this folly?" Yes. Without a doubt. Can it be done? Sure; if you're skilled enough, tenacious enough, crazy enough, and most importantly, lucky enough, you can do this. Why you would want to do this is beyond me, but then I don't understand most people who feel the need to do extreme-sport type things. And I too have spent considerable time exploring the Canadian wilds by canoe, kayak and sailboat.

I've never sailed your target area, but did sail Superior/North Channel for over a decade. I have sailed four of the five Great Lakes so I have some sense of the challenges you'll face. Arcb's analysis seems accurate to me.

So yes, it is possible to do this, but yes it is foolish. Go for it if you insist, but (and I don't think I've ever said this before), I'm glad to see you plan to cover the costs of any rescue. Although given your insistence on doing this cheaply, I kinda doubt you have the cash.
 
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