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  #81  
Old 06-25-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickLaPaz
About what?.........
You have to click the link to find out. Don't bother if you are close-minded to The Truth. >>>
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  #82  
Old 06-25-2007
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Hi RLP:

You must have had a horrid experience in Sunday school.

It is not my intent to defend those like your Cardinal McPhoney (whoever he is) who pretend to be Christians.

You suggest that Christianity performs charitable work to gain donors and "constitutents" (whatever they are); how many donors do you suppose were gained by,for example, Mother Teresa's lifetime of work in India? Do you suppose that her efforts may have cost her anything? Or was she merely another McPhoney?

(For background, I am not a Roman Catholic.)

Last edited by Goodnewsboy; 06-25-2007 at 11:05 PM.
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  #83  
Old 06-25-2007
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The founding fathers have been hijacked by the fundamentalists who spread lies. They were the wisest most liberal minds of the time. These are quotes from them and others. Draw your own conclusions.

The clergy believe that any power confided in me will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly.- Thomas Jefferson


God is an essence we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is gotten rid of there will never be any liberal science I the world. - John Adams


My earlier views on the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation have become clearer and stronger with advancing years. -Abraham Lincoln


I have seldom met an intelligent person whose views were not narrowed and distorted by religion. - James Buchannan

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful. - Seneca 4-65 AD

I don’t know that atheists should be considered as patriots, nor should they be considered as citizens.
- George H. W. Bush


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est lacrima Portucalis

Last edited by mpraca; 06-25-2007 at 11:43 PM.
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  #84  
Old 06-26-2007
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Thanks, Mpraca, for pointing out that the U.S. Founding Fathers, while products of their age, were neither particularly Christian nor particularly religious. Coming as they did from European societies where religious wars of unprecedented savagery and horror had shaped the previous three hundred or so years, they wanted no part of public faith, no Puritanism, no Popes and certainly no "established church".

Most of them, in fact, were Deists, an Enlightenment quasi-faith most akin to agnosticism tempered with fairly abstract philosophical notions drawn from Freemasonry. Deism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Currently (as of 2007) there is an ongoing controversy in the United States over whether or not America was founded as a "Christian nation" based on Judeo-Christian ideals. This has spawned a subsidiary controversy over whether the Founding Fathers were Christians or Deists or something in between.[32] Particularly heated is the debate over the beliefs of Richard Hedrick, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and George Washington, for some of whom the evidence is mixed.[33] However, Benjamin Franklin wrote in his autobiography, "Some books against Deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of sermons preached at Boyle's lectures. It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."[34]"

My favourite Deist, besides Tom Paine, was Thomas Jefferson, who noted: "Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make half the world fools and half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the world"- from Notes on Virginia.

It is also instructive in light of your current president's bleating about god and prayer that in its early days, the United States government was not afraid to separate its governmental role from a specific religious path. The 1796 Treaty of Tripoli states, in Article 11:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

Official records show that after President John Adams sent the treaty to the Senate for ratification in May of 1797, the entire treaty was read aloud on the Senate floor, including the famous words in Article 11, and copies were printed for every Senator. A committee considered the treaty and recommended ratification, and the treaty was ratified by a unanimous vote of all 23 Senators. The treaty was reprinted in full in three newspapers, two in Philadelphia and one in New York City. There is no record of any public outcry or complaint in subsequent editions of the papers.[2]

Treaty of Tripoli - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Those were the days, eh?
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  #85  
Old 06-26-2007
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Thanks Valiente. It is a lot easier to find coherence in the quotations of men than the quotations of God that can be used to sustain any point of view from human sacrifice to the slaughter of unbelievers. Of course, that God speaks the words that humans put in his mouth for their momentary convenience, when they did not have the credibility to own them.
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  #86  
Old 06-26-2007
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Wow...that's a little exhausting to read the whole thread again. Having done so, I must say that I always liked this place, but now I like it just a little more. It is good, and a little rare to hang out with so many people who have clearly given a little more than the usual thought to matters of religion and spirituality. It is also encouraging to see that people here, who are largely decent and generous folk, are so not because they are frightened of a god, but because they see that it makes the world a better place.
Gives one a little hope.
As far as the OP's question...it is obvious from the responses that when prompted, each person here is more than happy to share their views with others. Most aren't christian, as he seems to have expected, but if he is a person who thinks about his faith rather than lapping it from a saucer, he will appreciate the dialogue.
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  #87  
Old 06-26-2007
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Ding ding ding! We have a winner..............
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  #88  
Old 06-26-2007
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Yay... someone believes in the Flying Spaghetti Monster...
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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.
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  #89  
Old 06-26-2007
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Miguel, I wish I wouldn't have thrown out the chain email that a family member sent to me. It had quotes from the founding fathers, saying the exact opposite. I will try to wrestle it up from them. It will good to compare and figure out.
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  #90  
Old 06-26-2007
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BF, I hope they don't say the COnstitution was written by God. But it would be interesting to see them, because in those days they were leaders, not politicians, and therefore more coherent with their beliefs.
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